Store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven
where moth and rust cannot destroy and thieves cannot break in and steal

Thursday, July 1, 2010

Why Would That Be?

Atheists are forever crying, "Evidence, Evidence! Give me evidence. And don't you dare let it be from the Bible because if any document has been included into the Bible I won’t believe it."

Absolutely none of what you’re about to read has anything to do with the Bible being inspired or infallible or any other trappings of religion. These are historical facts attested to by the vast majority of secular, atheist and Christian historical scholars.

The reason that I’m not using the documents that were later compiled into what we now know as the New Testament is of course, atheists have a double standard when it comes to judging ancient documents. Something that atheists seem to forget, or quite possibly don’t even know, is that the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ life as well as Acts of the Apostles and the other letters that are included in the New Testament weren’t written FOR inclusion into the Bible. What are now part of the Bible were once independent documents circulating throughout the Christian and non Christian community. These guys weren’t journalists working for something like, “Bible Magazine.” The documents that were compiled into what we know today as the New Testament were separate ancient documents, written by people who were interested in the life of Jesus. Some of the writers had been followers of, or students of Jesus. Others, like Dr. Luke were historians. These people had no idea that what they’d written would one day become part of the biggest and most important social and religious movement in history.

While there will always be those on the lunatic fringe who attempt to deny historical facts (eg. holocaust), to deny that there is extra Biblical factually accurate information regarding the life, death and resurrection of Jesus requires that you be either profoundly ignorant or a determined liar and most importantly, you must lie to yourself about what is factually and historically true. So I ask you, Why would the following have occurred if the facts of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection weren’t as described? There is absolutely no sustainable reason for the following historical events to have occurred unless the essential facts of Jesus death and resurrection are true.

When asking yourself why these historical events took place, I'm hoping that you have the integrity and the ability to be more open-minded than to stop with, "Lot's of people believe lots of things." That's good enough for people like Hugo but there's no reason that you need to limit yourself in that manner.

If Jesus didn’t die on the cross:
Why would Josephus, Matthew, Tacitus, Mark, Lucian of Samosata, Dr. Luke, Mara Bar-Serapion, John, The Babylonion Talmud and John Dominic Crossan (the Founder of the “Jesus Seminar”) all attest that Jesus’ crucifixion is historical fact? And why would that be when all but Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are non Christians?

If Jesus didn’t die on the cross, why would these historians and scholars write that He did? Why would they simply invent these stories? There was/is absolutely nothing of earthly value to be gained by concocting this as a lie.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
. Why do we have multiple, independent, extra Biblical sources attesting to the risen Jesus?
. Why do we have virtually unanimous modern historical scholarship agreeing that the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive after His death on the cross.
. Why would atheist historian and New Testament critic Gerd Ludemann say, “It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’ death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ.”
. Why would atheist historian Paula Fredriksen say, “I don’t know what they saw, but as a historian I know they believed they saw Jesus.”
. Why would highly critical New Testament scholar Rudolf Bultmann agree that historical criticism can establish “the fact that the first disciples came to believe in the resurrection and that they thought they had seen the risen Jesus."
. Why would atheist and founder of the Jesus Seminar state, “That Jesus was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be” - Why would these things be if Jesus wasn’t a historical figure?

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make sense. Why would the enemies of Christianity affirm the historical facts regarding the life, death and resurrection of Jesus if the evidence isn’t accurate and compelling?

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:

. Why would all the disciples, plus hundreds and hundreds of others believe that they saw Him alive?
. Why would they say that they spoke with Him?
. Why would they say that they ate with Him at various times and various places?
. If none of that is true, why would they be willing to die for MAKING UP THE LIE of seeing Jesus alive? There was absolutely nothing of earthly value to be gained, and everything to lose by concocting the supposed lies about Jesus life, death and resurrection.

REMEMBER these people didn’t believe someone else’s lie. Over the centuries many people have died for believing someone else’s lies. But if THESE people died for a lie, it was THEIR lie! They died for saying they saw Jesus alive again after His death. Liars simply do not make martyrs of themselves.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, their willingness to die for the “truth” doesn’t make any sense.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have Paul’s testimony about His encounter with Jesus and why do we have his radical transformation in character from a persecutor of the Church and a killer of Christians to the greatest missionary that the Christian Church has ever seen?

Remember, Paul:
. Was a rabid sceptic when Jesus appeared to him.
. Was an enemy of the Church when Jesus appeared to him.
This is not like most conversions whereby the person reads or hears something that persuades h/her to change. Paul’s evidence for the risen Jesus was first hand and so convincing that he endured years of hardship, persecution and rejection for proclaiming the risen Lord, before finally being beheaded by Nero in 64AD.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this change in Paul’s character doesn’t make any sense. He had absolutely nothing of earthly value to gain, and everything to lose by concocting a story of meeting Jesus while on His way to persecute the Church.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
. Why in the world would Jesus’ brothers James and Jude go to their deaths proclaiming that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead? . Why would they claim that they had seen Him alive after His death?
. Why would they confess that Jesus is the Lord God, Messiah?

Think about it! This was their half-brother, someone that they’d previously mocked and ridiculed. James’ and Jude’s conversions were a drastic change from thinking their Brother was insane and an embarrassment to the family.

What would it take for you to make this kind of change? What would it take for you to die for that change? For me, it would take nothing LESS than a resurrection.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this change in the beliefs of Jesus’ siblings, ALL of His siblings, doesn’t make any sense. They had absolutely nothing of earthly value to gain and everything to lose if what they said about Jesus appearing to them after His death was not true.

Remember, Both Paul and James were sceptics at the time that Jesus appeared to them. Why would they become His followers if His resurrection wasn't historical fact?

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why was His tomb empty?
. Jesus’ ENEMIES were the ones to CONFIRM that the body was missing by proposing that the disciples stole it.
. The disciples didn’t have the power nor the inclination to steal His body. They were hiding behind locked doors.
. Jesus’ enemies had no reason to steal the body and every reason to keep it right where it was. They posted an armed guard, and sealed the tomb with the Governor’s seal to make sure that nothing happened to the body. . The first proclamations of the empty tomb were made right there in Jerusalem where Jesus was murdered and buried. The tomb could have been easily checked out.

If the resurrection isn’t historical fact, how is it that the tomb was empty with no sound explanation OTHER than the resurrection?

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do the ancient documents written by Jesus’ followers make the “mistake” of saying that women (who at the time were seen as lower than dogs and not capable of telling the truth) were the ones who discovered the empty tomb and encountered the risen Lord. If it wasn’t true, if the disciples were trying to convince others of a lie, if the resurrection wasn’t historical fact, why would the writers invent the testimony of women to say that it was true?

If the resurrection isn’t historical fact, it doesn’t make any sense that His followers would do that.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:

Why did Josephus, Hegesippus and Clement of Alexandria all non Christians and all historians write about Jesus’ brother James, his leadership in the Jerusalem Church and his martyrdom for proclaiming Jesus as risen Lord and Saviour?

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense. I think they would only write these things if the evidence convinced them that it was accurate.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have an early oral tradition or creed that dates from the first year after Jesus’ death attesting to the fact of Him rising from the dead. 1st Corinthians 15:3-8

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense. There is no hint of legend or exaggeration in this oral tradition. These people had their lives to lose by repeating it. Why would they do that if it wasn’t true?

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have the written works of the early Church with hymns, poetry and creeds, stemming from the early oral history telling about Jesus rise from the dead?

Without the resurrection being historical fact, we simply wouldn't have this.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have the Christian Church? Paul reminded early Christians, “If Jesus did not rise from the dead, our faith is worthless.”

Without the resurrection being historical fact there wouldn’t be any Christianity.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
How did Paul know what He knew about Jesus prior to any contact with the apostles and why would they accept Paul as one of their own based on what he was teaching about Jesus? This was an “outsider” eager to kill the leaders of the early Jesus movement, now coming to them with a knowledge of Jesus’ teaching equal to those who had been insiders for three years.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, and without Jesus appearing to Paul and teaching Paul about Himself, this doesn’t make any sense.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have the four ancient biographies of Jesus, one of them by historian and physician Luke who got his information from eyewitnesses (including Jesus’ mother) all affirming the resurrection of Jesus? Why would they tell Luke that these things happened if they weren’t true? They paid for that "lie" with their lives.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense.

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
Why do we have Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Polycarp and others, all saying that they had been taught by the apostles that Jesus had risen from the dead. And then, ALL of these men were themselves martyred based on the believability of what the disciples had told them. These were not ignorant, gullible men. Yet the evidence made sense to them.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, without the presence of Jesus in their lives, how could that happen?

If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead:
What would account for the disciple’s radical transformation from fearful and cowardly men who denied Jesus and who ran away from Him during His trial, to bold individuals who were so confident of the truth of what they saw and heard regarding His resurrection, that they were willing to undergo years of persecution as well as torture and death rather than change their story.
Peter watched his own wife being crucified just prior to his own crucifixion. Surely, if the risen Jesus was a lie concocted by Peter himself, he wouldn’t have allowed that to happen.

Without the resurrection, this type of behaviour doesn’t make any sense.

If the accounts of what the disciples taught weren’t true:
. Why was it that Polycarp wrote of the endurance under torture of Paul, Ignatius, Zosimus, and Rufus for their belief in the risen Christ?
. Why was it that Ignatius also wrote of the suffering and death of the apostles?
. Why was it that Polycarp and Ignatius were both martyred?
. Why would they be willing to die in such a manner if the accounts of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection weren’t accurate?

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense.

If the accounts of what the disciples taught weren’t true:
Why would we have confirming accounts of the disciples teaching and deaths in Roman public records called “Lives of the Caesars.”

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense.

If the accounts of what the disciples taught weren’t true:
Why would Origen write, “Jesus, who has both risen AND led His disciples to believe in His resurrection and so thoroughly persuaded them of its truth that they showed to all men by their suffering how they were able to laugh at life’s troubles beholding to life eternal and a resurrection clearly demonstrated to them in word and deed by this one Jesus.”

Without the resurrection being historical fact, it doesn’t make any sense that Origen would write that.

If the accounts of what the disciples taught weren’t true:
Why do we have Eusebius, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Hegesibous, Josephus, Clement of Alexandria, all of these sources, Christian and non Christian alike affirming the historicity of Jesus and the disciples willingness to die for what they believed to be true.

Without the resurrection being historical fact, it doesn’t make any sense that these many and varied individuals would make this stuff up.

If the accounts of what the disciples taught weren’t true:
. Why is it that Luke writes that Jesus spent about 40 days with the disciples after He rose from the dead, and
. Why can it be further calculated that about 50-55 days after His death, Jesus’ followers started proclaiming His resurrection, and
. Why did Tacitus, an ENEMY of Christianity, write “Jesus’ execution by Pontius Pilot checked, for the moment, the Christian movement but it then broke out with force not only in Judea but even in Rome.”
. Why would these accounts, one from a follower of Jesus and one from a secular historian and ENEMY of Christianity be so similar unless they’re true?

Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make any sense.

Absolutely none of what I’ve just written has anything to do with the Bible being inspired or infallible or any other trappings of religion. These are historical facts attested to by the vast majority of secular, atheist and Christian historical scholars. While there will always be those on the lunatic fringe who attempt to deny historical facts (eg. holocaust) to deny that there is extra Biblical factually accurate information regarding the life, death and resurrection of Jesus requires that you be either profoundly ignorant or a determined liar and most importantly, you must lie to yourself about what is factually and historically true. There is absolutely no sustainable reason for the above historical events to have occurred unless the essential facts of Jesus death and resurrection are true.

These questions, stemming from this evidence demands more than just a flippant, “People rising from the dead is impossible.” Something totally “other” happened back then and ignoring it is not a rational nor a logical thing to do.
If Jesus did in fact supernaturally rise from the dead, then what He taught about being the Son of God and about the existence of Creator God must also be true. The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus demands a verdict. With the evidence so overwhelmingly pointing to the fact of His resurrection, one can do three things:

. Submit to Jesus as Lord and Saviour - Or

. Lie to yourself that none of this proves anything - Or

. Say to yourself, “I don’t care if God is real, I’m going to live my life, my way.”

14 comments:

  1. "Liars simply do not make martyrs of themselves."

    Other than Joseph and Hyrum Smith.

    ". . . there is extra Biblical factually accurate information regarding the life, death and resurrection of Jesus . . ."

    There may be plenty of ex-Biblical references to people believing in the resurrection of Jesus, but what ex-Biblical info is there about the resurrection itself (other than the quote from Origen in the post)? Are there any ex-Biblical references to the resurrections in Matthew 27:51-53?

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  2. Atheists are forever crying, "Evidence, Evidence! Give me evidence. And don't you dare let it be from the Bible because if any document has been included into the Bible I won’t believe it."

    Why don't you consider lying to be a sin, Rod? The Bible clearly states otherwise...

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  3. Atheists are forever crying, "Evidence, Evidence! Give me evidence. And don't you dare let it be from the Bible because if any document has been included into the Bible I won’t believe it."

    Wow... why would anybody keep reading the arguments presented after such introduction?

    Starting with a lie is not going to convince much people that the rest is not a lie as well...

    Will Thesauros answer WEM question at some point?
    Why don't you consider lying to be a sin, Rod?

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  4. I'm forced to conclude that Makarios could actually learn about objective morality by following the examples of the atheists who post here...

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  5. Ok, I did take the time to read that post since I realized it is a very honest way to present the reasons why we should all believe that the resurrection of Jesus is a real historical event.

    There are many things I agree with, but also many that I consider to be huge leap of faith. Let’s make lists as this post was way too long to answer it line by line...

    ***AGREE***
    NOTE: Not 100% sure for all of them, but I want to be short so I will avoid explanations and just grant them as being true

    1) Documents found in the Bible were not written in order to be presented as Gospels.

    2) Jesus existed as a real historical character.

    3) Jesus died on a cross (or something else).

    4) There are extra biblical sources that claim that Jesus has risen from the dead.

    5) The disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive after His death on the cross. Hundreds and hundreds later claimed the same.

    6) Even the enemies of Christianity affirm the historical facts regarding the life and death of Jesus.

    7) People are willing to die for that they believe to be true.

    8) Every single martyr was honest and really thought that Jesus was who he said he was.

    9) Paul converted from "a persecutor of the Church and a killer of Christians to the greatest missionary that the Christian Church has ever seen".

    10) Josephus, Hegesippus and Clement of Alexandria all non Christians and all historians wrote about Jesus’ brother James, his leadership in the Jerusalem Church and his martyrdom for proclaiming Jesus as risen Lord and Saviour.

    11) We have an early oral tradition or creed (and written work) that dates from the first year after Jesus’ death attesting to the fact of Him rising from the dead.

    12) The evidence (eye witness accounts and/or texts) made sense to a lot of people, and still make sense for a lot of people today.

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  6. ***DISAGREE***

    - Atheists do not reject the Bible because it is the Bible. You keep lying about that.

    - There are no double standards for judging anything in history, at least according to my own principles which have nothing to do with my atheism anyway.

    - You said "Without the resurrection being historical fact, this doesn’t make sense." That's false. All the point above remain true whether a resurrection took place or not.

    - 6) I purposely removed resurrection, because non-Christian do not affirm that there are historical facts regarding that.

    - Yes, liars SO make martyrs of themselves. Even if there is nothing to gain from it, from our perspective, some people are willing to die for a lie that they know is a lie. There were cases of people who admitted to crimes they did not commit. We, sane people, simply cannot understand that... but since I wrote 8), this point was not really needed. It does not matter if martyrs lied or not. Their beliefs are not proven by their conviction.

    - Paul had a lot to gain from what he did. The fact that we talk about him right now is just one example... Would he be famous otherwise? I am not saying that this is the reason why he became a Christian (SEE 8 AGAIN); I am just pointing out the fact that it's false to say that he did not have anything to gain from it. (add "ALL of His siblings" to that point)

    - I disagree with: "What would it take for you to make this kind of change? What would it take for you to die for that change? For me, it would take nothing LESS than a resurrection." It's not the resurrection that made them change; it's the fact that they started to believe in it happening. You claim yourself Rod to have been an atheist before becoming a Christian. Obviously you did not see a resurrection yourself. Therefore you converted for much less than a resurrection... I don't know if you would be willing to die for it now though.

    - I disagree that a resurrection is the only sound explanation for the empty tomb simply because that's way too much details in the first place. Was it really garded? Was Jesus really put there? Was there really an heavy rock? Etc, etc etc... the question of the empty tomb is pointless. The story is way too vague. Magicians are pretty good, right now, to make things "disappear" anyway... so why would it be so surprising to have something disappear 2,000 years ago when people literally believed in magic?

    - Non-Christian writers at the time wrote about CHRISTIANS, and what they believed, not about the resurrection itself since they did not believe it had happened.

    - It's not surprising at all that Paul would know so much about Jesus. These people all came from the same religion or had more or less the same beliefs, except what concerned Jesus I guess... but if he was persecuting Christian, why is it surprising that he did not know the tenets of Christianity? It makes perfect sense to know who you are going after...

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  7. OK, I think that's enough, the pattern remains the same all the way through... but most importantly, I disagree with this:

    Without the resurrection being historical fact there wouldn’t be any Christianity.

    Nice special pleading for Christianity...


    In conclusion, there is no historical facts to deny here, since the only facts you present are confirming that people really believe what they saw/heard... yep, I go back to that idea that you laughed about, but that's basically what you wrote again!

    I would like to add something though:
    Personally, I don't see anything wrong with believing that Jesus Christ did rise from the dead...

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  8. "It's not the resurrection that made them change;"

    Oh it is. "Unless Christ has risen, you're faith is in vain." If Jesus hasn't risen from the dead then Jesus is just another Joseph Smith, of Buddha, or even, God forbid, Mohammed :-) I became a Christian because something that I can't explain has touched me, taken ahold of me changed me. I believe that Jesus is alive - in every sense, alive.

    Personally, I don't see anything wrong with believing that Jesus Christ did rise from the dead...

    What does that mean?

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  9. "It's not the resurrection that made them change;"
    Oh it is. "Unless Christ has risen, you're faith is in vain." If Jesus hasn't risen from the dead then Jesus is just another Joseph Smith, of Buddha, or even, God forbid, Mohammed :-)


    No, even if we had ultimate proof that Jesus never existed at all, the fact that these people were converted would remain true; Christianity would remain a real religion, and nothing would be changed.

    This goes back to the last point I mentioned; it's exactly the same idea. I completely disagree that "without the resurrection being historical fact there wouldn’t be any Christianity."
    You seem to really believe that Christianity could not exist based on a lie. Is that what you think? At the same time you proved yourself in your Joseph Smith post that it's possible for a religion to exist even when proven false...

    " I became a Christian because something that I can't explain has touched me, taken ahold of me changed me. I believe that Jesus is alive - in every sense, alive.

    I believe you, just like I believe the apostles and all the martyrs that believed in Jesus, no problem there... it's just not a good reason, on its own, for other people to believe.

    -Personally, I don't see anything wrong with believing that Jesus Christ did rise from the dead...
    -What does that mean?


    It means that I don't put everything in the same basket. I will never judge someone because he tells me that Jesus Christ is God. I disagree, but that's it.

    I thought it was worth mentioning only because you do the complete opposite... you judge atheists without knowing anything about them only because they say that they do not believe in your god. You even said that they are all the same to you, when the one single thing they have in common is 'non-belief in a god'. Of course people here share a lot more but we are a very closed circle, but even then, we are a lot different from each other... WEM is not even an atheist by the way, even if you refuse to acknoledge it, lol.

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  10. WEM is not even an atheist by the way,

    Is he a Theist?

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  11. I told you once, within the last 2 months. You ignored it and called me an atheist in your very next post.

    When you're willing to be that dishonest, what would be the point of (or even motivation for) me being honest with you?

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  12. Yes, yes I know, you called yourself a Deist.

    You are NOT a Theist. Right?

    You LIVE as though Creator God, a moral God, a personal God a Theistic God does not exist.

    Creator God is tryng to warn you to get right with Him or you WILL experience the exact same fate as those who deny His existence.

    You reject His offer of forgiveness the same a those who deny His existence. For all the good your deism is going to do you, you may as well be an atheist.

    From the perspective of what Jesus taught - Jesus who IS the Theistic God:
    - you live as an atheist
    - you function as an atheist
    - you are a functional atheist.

    You might think that you're going to get some kind of credit for admitting that the universe couldn't have come from nothing by itself. And if there weren't any more information available to you perhaps that would count for something. But you have access to everything that you need to know to know that this is a Theistic universe. Just like any other atheist posting here, you've rejected it all. Whether it's you or Hugo or any other atheist commenting here, according to Jesus, I'm talking to people who, at least to this point, are spiritually dead, by choice and who will be forever separated from Him - unless they change their relationship with Him.

    That offer will stand until you're dying breath. That's how much He loves you. Only you can keep you out of heaven.

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  13. "Only you can keep you out of heaven."

    Thank goodness I have the free will to stay out of heaven, since those in heaven apparently don't have any. If they did have free will, they would be able to make choices, and some people's choices would be considered less pleasing to some of the population than others. If people in heaven have free will and are thus able to make choices, but nobody else finds one choice less appealing than another, for all eternity, then people in heaven are just robotic beings without the ability to evaluate things. If they can't evaluate things, then there is no good and no evil, there is only whatever their creator has apparently programmed their brains to perceive, which is paradise.

    So if going to heaven means losing my free will and the ability to then see the consequences of my choices, no thanks. If going to heaven means losing my ability to evaluate things and decide which pleases me more, no thanks. If going to heaven means an eternal paradise, with no challenges, no choices, no success vs. failure, no unfulfilled desires (proper moral desires only, of course), then no thanks. People only think they want eternal bliss (happiness, paradise, utopia, whatever) until they really think about it.

    I'll take the eternal torment in Hell any day. If it's not bad enough to put you out of your misery for an eternity, how bad could it really be? Besides, I'd be challenged trying to think of ways to lessen my torment or pain, or even escape. I like a good challenge. Eternity without any challenges just isn't appealing to me. Paradise for me is meeting challenges, and learning from my successes and failures. (See Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's concept of Flow.)

    In other words, if I can't be me in heaven (I'd even accept a sinless me), who the hell am I and who is everyone else there?

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  14. Yes, yes I know, you called yourself a Deist.

    You are NOT a Theist. Right?

    You LIVE as though Creator God, a moral God, a personal God a Theistic God does not exist.


    A simple visit to Wikipedia would answer those questions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

    Deism is considered a sub branch of theism.

    I reject your interpretation of God, Thesauros. More specifically, from your behavior on this blog, I reject your authority to speak as if you know of Him.

    If it gives you comfort to feel that I'm going to burn forever because I reject your interpretation of something which billions of people interpret differently, go for it.

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