Over the years I’ve heard numerous atheists say that even if God is real, we can’t know what He is like. That of course shows a profound ignorance.
“If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.”Jesus
"I and the Father are one."Jesus
"Before Abraham was, I Am." Jesus
If we want to know what God is like, all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
If we want to know about God’s holiness, all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
If we want to know about God's wrath , all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
If we want to know what matters most to God, all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
If we want to know about the forgiveness of God, all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
If we want to know about the love of God, all we have to do is study the character of Jesus.
Of course atheists never allow themselves to read the New Testament so I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised that they don't know this.
ReplyDeleteOver the years I’ve heard numerous atheists say that even if God is real, we can’t know what He is like. That of course shows a profound ignorance.
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Of course atheists never allow themselves to read the New Testament so I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised that they don't know this.
Rod, do you realize that you have been saying these words over and over again for years now?
Why don't you listen to the very few people who take a few minutes of their life to discuss these things with you?
Look, if we were face to face, here's what would really happen.
- First, you would never bring up something like this. You would never just randomly say ' Over the years I’ve heard numerous atheists say that even if God is real, we can’t know what He is like.'. Be honest, did you ever come close to mention something like this?
- Second, you keep insisting that atheists are ignorant. At the same time, you are humble and don't pretend to be more intelligent, rational, logical, good, or anything else, than anybody else. It would be very un-christian of you to claim that you are better, since we are all not worthy of forgiveness, for we have all sinned. Hence, you are not better, but you know, and Atheists don't.
- Third, Atheists are too different from each other to put them all together under one umbrella. In other words, in means absolutely nothing to talk about 'Atheists'. Ironically, you have been mentioning Atheists on your Thesauros blog, and Makarios before, for years now. You are just as ridiculous as Atheists who have blogs about Theists, Christians, or any other large group that contain all kinds of people. Hence, if we were face-to-face, you would probably never get to know that I am an Atheists, because you would have absolutely no reason to ask, or think about it.
- Fourth, perhaps you are not convinced with point (3). Well since I mentioned that I got engaged, why not give another personal example. I am now a godfather! My sister got a baby girl recently, and I flew back to my home town for her baptism. I went to church, participated in everything with a big smile and showed as much enthusiasms as I could. Not because I was being hypocrite, of course not, but because it was my niece's baptism. That's something awesome! My very first! The only other baptism I went to was when I was 5 and my younger cousin was getting baptizes... But wait, I am forgetting to make a point: Who would guess that the godfather, very well dressed (others were wearing shorts and t-shirts for fuck sake, can't they get dressed once a year!?) and 100% into it, reading religious text more passionately than anyone else, would be the one who actually believes strongly that all of this is just symbolic, that God has nothing to do with it?
Do you get what this means? There is, around you, right now, lots of people who actually don't think that God is real. They are what you call Atheists with such a negative connation. Yet, these people are just like you in many ways, both good and bad. However, for some reason, you prefer to dissociate yourself from these people and claim that they are ignorant fools who choose to reject what's good, what's holy, what's sacred... God.
I wish that ended there, but it does not. Because of that black-and-white mentality, you seem to have a view of the world that puts you in confrontation with anyone else who is not a 'good' Christian. It is therefore not even a theist-atheists problem, but rather a literal 'us' VS 'them' problem, where 'them' is basically anyone who is too different.
How could you you ever get to understand other human beings with such attitude?
"You would never just randomly say ' Over the years I’ve heard numerous atheists say that even if God is real, we can’t know what He is like.”
ReplyDeleteWell, not if we hadn't been talking about atheism.
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“Second, you keep insisting that atheists are ignorant.”
I don't mean that in a pejorative sense. What I know about God I know “from” God. Not because I'm more intelligent or better or anything else one can think of. All God from beginning to end.
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Third, Atheists are too different from each other to put them all together under one umbrella.”
Look, if I've ever written, “ALL atheists say or do this or that or the other thing,” I erred and I'm sorry. I do say “atheists do this or say that,” because it's easier than remembering names and blogs etc. If I know of exceptions or if I've just encountered an example I will and I have used the name. I did that recently with Rebecca Watson when she said, “The commands that Christians say are of God are always what man wants anyway.” I've heard that from countless atheists. I've never heard an atheist say otherwise – so I say, “Atheists say . . .”
Here's what you don't see on my blog, Hugo. It was on some atheist thing called, “The Point.” A guest said, “Every discovery of archaeology has refuted the claims of the Bible.” I had to play it over and over and over again because I couldn't believe ANYONE would say something so outrageously inaccurate. At any rate, you will never see me write, “Atheists say that every discovery . . .” because I've only heard it once.
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Not because I was being hypocrite,”
In our congregation the God Parents are asked to PROMISE God and the congregation that they will help the parents raise their child to know and obey Jesus. It's a good thing that your sister's congregation isn't like that or you would have had to be a liar and a hypocrite.
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"They are what you call Atheists with such a negative connation.” they are ignorant fools who choose to reject what's good, what's holy, what's sacred... God.”
Hugo you know, perhaps better than most of the people who read this blog that I have never suggested that atheists, in general are less than Christians in their moral actions, in their civil duties, as law abiding citizens, etc. However, when it comes to the most important aspect of their lives, the aspect regarding their Creator and the evidence that is available for the existence of their Creator, atheists are absolute fools. Profoundly ignorant (lacking information) fools. They are willing to risk an eternity in hell for a world-view that has no evidence to support it.
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"that puts you in confrontation with anyone else who is not a 'good' Christian.
It does not! Most of my friends are non Christians. Virtually all of my neighbours are non Christians. The vast majority of my counselling clients are non Christians and I can't think of one of any of those people that I'm in conflict with. I did have a neighbour (perhaps six years ago) who didn't like me / us but he didn't like brown kids and, well, all our kids are brown. For some reason our kids especially liked playing with his kids so they were at his place a lot. I tried to be friends with him, find common ground etc. But they moved away.
Everything you say makes sense, especially the details you specified, so I have very little to response this time.
ReplyDeleteHowever, you contradict yourself.
I don't mean that in a pejorative sense.
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when it comes to the most important aspect of their lives, [...] atheists are absolute fools. Profoundly ignorant (lacking information) fools. They are willing to risk an eternity in hell for a world-view that has no evidence to support it.
Not in a pejorative way as well?
you would have had to be a liar and a hypocrite.
You missed the part where I said that it's all symbolic. I am not more hypocrite than anyone else.
I don't mean "ignorant" in a pejorative sense.
ReplyDeleteThe term fool is not meant as a put-down. It's just a statement of fact. Out of all the examples of foolishness that one could think of, trading eternity in heaven for a blip of time here on earth could hardly be exceeded.
If there were good reasons to believe you then that would make sense; but I see no reason to believe that your view on a life after death is accurate. Why believe that there is such a thing as Heaven?
ReplyDeleteIf there were good reasons to believe you then that would make sense; but I see no reason to believe that your view on a life after death is accurate. Why believe that there is such a thing as Heaven?
ReplyDeleteJesus and His resurrection.
ReplyDeleteJesus and His resurrection.
ReplyDeleteWhy believe that this story is literal from start to end when we have contradicting accounts?
ReplyDeleteWhy believe the others stories* are not to be taken literally?
*Adam and Eve
Noah's flood
Parting of the Red See
Jonah living inside a fish
10 plagues of Egypt
Anything else from other religions
What do you mean by contradicting accounts?
ReplyDeleteMaybe contradiction is a strong word, since the general narrative remains the same; I meant that there are details, sometimes non-trivial, that are different from one gospel to another. Out of the top of my head, I remember the place where Jesus got baptized by John, the number of angels who came to speak to Mary, the people who found the tomb empty, the zombies that came out after the resurrections, etc...
ReplyDeleteIn any case, that's not really the point. It could be just one story with one version and my skepticism would remain, for the same reason. Why believe that the Jesus story is literally true, from start to finish, while we know, for sure, that lots of others fantastic mythical stories are pure inventions, or at least fictional stories inspired by real events? What makes the Jesus one more credible?
"Maybe contradiction is a strong word, since the general narrative remains the same;"
ReplyDeleteIf there aren't contradictions, why use the word contradiction?
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"I meant that there are details . . ."
There are accounts where one detail is emphasized over another. What would you expect from four different eye-witnesses? If the accounts were identical then you'd cry "conspiracy!"
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"Why believe that the Jesus story is literally true, What makes the Jesus one more credible?"
See tomorrow's post.
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If there aren't contradictions, why use the word contradiction?
ReplyDeleteThey are contradictions, but I mean that it's not really that important since the contradictions do not concern the resurrection.
There are accounts where one detail is emphasized over another.
No no, they are literally different in some cases. Don't have time to give examples right now but it's not really important anyway, since as I said, even without contradiction it would not change much.
What would you expect from four different eye-witnesses? If the accounts were identical then you'd cry "conspiracy!"
That's actually more significant, because we know that eye witness accounts are highly unreliable. So you are right that it makes sense for them to be slightly different. If they were identical it would not be more or less reliable though... your snark is useless...
Moreover, last time I checked, there were no eye witnesses account. Oldest text are younger than Jesus' death, no?
See tomorrow's post.
I won't hold my breath. All you have are books... books are not convincing!
"Don't have time to give examples right now"
ReplyDeleteYa right!
lol, what does that mean? you think I lied and really just cannot come up with any?
ReplyDeleteexactly - how hard is it for a Biblical scholar like you to give me two or three glaring contradictions in the gospels?
ReplyDelete