I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard fools go off on how unjust eternal punishment is “just for denying God’s existence,” or “just for a few sins.”
Well, how would YOU know whether or not it is just?
“But nothing,” they say, “can warrant eternal punishment in hell.”
Again, how would you know whether or not eternal punishment in hell is just?
How would you know if it is a punishment that fits the crime?
Your Creator says that denial of His existence and willful disobedience of His command DOES warrant eternal separation from His presence. And if anybody would know, it would be the One who Created you.
Our fallen nature is such that we have almost zero comprehension of the wondrous perfection of love as it is found in our Creator.
Our fallen nature is such that we have almost zero comprehension of the vile and odious nature of turning our backs on what was meant to be perfection.
It doesn’t matter, technically, how MANY sins we have committed. Sin as it’s normally understood is just a symptom of the real problem, the problem of who we are, people who in our natural state are unfit to be in the presence of a perfectly Holy Creator God.
John 3:18 tells us clearly that we either allow God to change our natural state or we WILL be eternally banished from His presence - for eternity - in hell - as a just
punishment for willfully remaining in our fallen state - Period.
Some people believe that they should have a say in whether this is acceptable or not - hence the label - Fool.
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Poor Gandhi...
ReplyDeleteHe knew what he was doing.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you condemn Gandhi is hilarious.
ReplyDelete"I" condemn Gandhi? I don't think so.
ReplyDeleteThis whole conversation always revolves around ownership. A Creator has the right to create any arbitrary rules for His creation as he will, just as those that play Sim City can do whatever they'd like with the city they've created.
ReplyDeleteHowever, if there is no Creator, then we are left to arbitrary rule by the masses, as each individual possess their own arbitrary feelings of right and wrong-- and what the punishment should be for the wrong.
The latter is much scarier than the former.
So... it is better to have people running around misinterpretting "God's rules" from thousands of pages of contradictory mythology than making a cogent set that works?
ReplyDeleteThe former is an unfortunate side effect of the human condition-- man will twist whatever he reads to fit his wants or desires.
ReplyDeleteThe latter is impossible for the same very reason-- what is good for one human may not be good for another human, and neither possess the standing to dictate to the other that they are indeed right or wrong. This leads to the illogical position of saying that one thing was morally right at one point in time and then morally wrong at another.
This whole conversation always revolves around ownership. A Creator has the right to create any arbitrary rules for His creation as he will, just as those that play Sim City can do whatever they'd like with the city they've created.
ReplyDeleteI've created this baby, I have the right to set it on fire! Hey, why are the social services taking it away...
Well, Anonymous, you'd have to actually determined that you created the baby. Can you Define what makes that baby alive and not just a group of cells? Obviously, two people were involved in the contribution to another being, but the Creator of the Universe claims that He is the author of life and that he is the one that "knit me together in my mother's womb."
ReplyDeleteOh, and there's also the concept that ownership carries down:
If I build a robot who's natural function is to build a car and then I provide the parts to build said car and then the robot builds the car, who owns the car? Does the robot, or do I, as the Creator of the robot?
In case you don't 'get' it. The point was it is a wicked thing to create a thinking, feeling being for the sake of torturing it.
ReplyDeleteI know of many computer games where people have created NPCs to torture, and I know a few GI Joes that got tortured by children playing in their backyards. Is this a moral problem for you as well?
ReplyDeleteCreator/Owner means that it doesn't matter for what purpose the creation was made-- it still belongs to the creator. I know that there are Scripture passages that say that some people are creations destined for honor and some for dishonor-- but who can justly question the Creator. It is His right, and He is right to do whatever He wants with his Creation.
But back to the point-- seems rather odd that a Creator that was creating beings just to torture them would send His own Son to be tortured and killed by these beings if the only purpose in the Creation was torture.
Do GI Joes think and feel?
ReplyDeleteI don't know what NPCs are but I assume they are do not think and feel.
Like I said:
"In case you don't 'get' it. The point was it is a wicked thing to create a thinking, feeling being for the sake of torturing it."
It is His right, and He is right to do whatever He wants with his Creation.
What a disgusting world-view.
It is like apologizing for Hitler saying "It's his country, he can send whomever he wants to the gas chambers... and he is right to do so."
You are literally trying to justify torture, infinite torture. It is sickening that you can worship some an evil monster. It is vile that you can believe in such evil and proclaim it 'right'.
seems rather odd that a Creator that was creating beings just to torture them would send His own Son to be tortured and killed by these beings if the only purpose in the Creation was torture.
I didn't say the only purpose in creation was torture but can you see how much of your world-view glorifies it?
God says something and whatever God says must be 'morally perfect' because he says so therefore even if I think it is immoral I am wrong and He is right and can I abandon all my personal morals please and replace them with yours please sir, please sir, please don't send me to hell sir, please.
ReplyDeleteGod created you like you are but doesn't like what he created because practically anything you do is infinitely offensive to him because he is incredibly tectchy and will send you to hell for eternity for telling a lie even if we have spent and devoted our entire life otherwise helping others....but he is morally perfect by the way...honest sir please don't send me to hell sir I will do what you want sir!!
He sacrificed himself to himself as a loophole to a system that he himself created even though he apparently knew all this would happen in advance. Piffle.
Obviously you do not understand analogy, for you ignore it with a plea to "you didn't read what I said." It's irrelevant whether something is "thinking or feeling" when discussing the concepts of ownership or creating. You're attempting to apply your own moral code to the situation instead of acknowledging the basis of the argument.
ReplyDeleteAnd you further do not "get" the concept of being a Creator. Hitler, though he may have been ruler of his country, was not the creator of the people of his country. Though he may have the position whereby he could commit murder and atrocities, he was not the Creator and the people were not his to do whatever he chose with. He was judged.
Nice bit of projection there at the last part. In order for something to be evil, there has to be a standard for good. But who is in a position to have or impose such a standard? The Creator is, by virtue of His position, also the rule maker. Therefore, it is impossible for Him to be "evil" since He is by definition good.
Since there was a simple standard-- obey by not eating this fruit-- to which the race decided it would rather disobey, there was a punishment that was described before the infraction which is being carried out. This is justice.
As much as I would like to see no one be judged this way, the judgment is just based on the rules.
God created everything perfect. Man chose to sin-- He chose the way of disobedience. Should God have just made robots, or is there something intrinsically more valuable in that choice.
It's like having a spouse choose you rather than having something made in China sent to you. Certainly both are worth something, but in the end there is more value in something that chooses to love you rather thani s programmed to love you.
[Anon and Anon#4 have MInTheGap defending infinite torture. Min is using the "Might makes right" defense and the "blame the tortured not the torturer" defense. Can't wait 'till Anon posts again]
ReplyDelete