“I can’t help it God. It’s just who I am. In fact, it’s just who YOU made me!”
That’s what a lot of people are planning to tell God on judgment day when asked to explain their ignoring His commands re: moral behaviour.
It’s an old argument really. As old as Adam and Eve.
Adam: “It’s your fault God! The woman You gave me . . .”
Eve: “It’s your fault God! The serpent You created . . .”
I would encourage you to read this blog entry.
http://www.flyingoskar.com/2010/11/02/miss-mom-christianity-and-bigotry/comment-page-1/#comment-411
The author of the post wouldn’t allow me to reply, so I’ve posted it here. I don’t know if the blogger - Sylvie - considers herself to be a follower of Jesus or not. It’s getting increasingly difficult to tell these days. We no longer have christians who just “do” those things that Jesus said to not do. Now we have christians who actively TEACH things in total contradiction to what Jesus taught, and these people still call themselves followers of Jesus.
“Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of and encourage those who practice them.” Romans 1:32
Anyhow, in response to her post I asked the following:
When you say that we should accept homosexuality as “normal and healthy” because homosexuals “have always been that way,” are you also suggesting that sexual relations of ANY type are acceptable and welcomed by God? Yes? No?
Are you saying that the Biblical idea that sexual relationships are to remain within the safety bounds of marriage (heterosexual marriage no less) is no longer applicable to those calling themselves Christians? Yes? No?
Are you saying that people who are enjoying sexual relations with both men and women (bisexuals) or groups of men and women are and should be celebrated by those who follow Jesus? Yes? No?
Are you saying that Jesus Himself would celebrate such relationships? And He would do so because “that’s the way they’ve always been? Would Jesus accept them because they’ve always enjoyed sex with lots of different people and never known or wanted anything different but to have sex with lots of different people?” Yes? No?
I ask because as a retired counsellor I’ve worked with a number of paedophiles and low and behold, that is exactly what these men say, “I’ve always been sexually attracted to children and only children. I’ve never known anything else. I was born this way.”
These are not bad people Sylvie. You can’t imagine the inner pain and turmoil they experience because society rejects, and rejects in a vile and hateful manner, who these men ARE - not who they've chosen to be, but who they ARE - worse - who they have always been. Some would say that it’s who God made them. You cannot imagine the agony they experience when all of society tells them that they must change what they cannot change. Some of them even commit suicide because society tells them that who they are at a fundamental level is wrong!
If being born a certain way - (eg. with the propensity to obesity, violence, addictions) is the ground rule or base-line for acceptance, do you not see any problems here? I understand that we are called to love ALL people. That of course is right and good. In fact, loving ALL people is what God commands. But that isn’t what you’re advocating - is it? What you are advocating is not just loving the person but proving that love by accepting their predilections as something to celebrate. Yes? No?
Are you suggesting, along with Spong that when Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers lay down, and lay down clearly, a heterosexual married standard for sexual relationships that we can ignore Jesus’ comments at will with no repercussions because - well - because that is what society dictates that followers of Jesus must do? Yes? No?
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No idea who that Sylvie is and what she wrote exactly, but you should try to answer just these:
ReplyDelete- How do you know EXACTLY what Jesus wanted/said/taught when everything was written down by, and passed by, imperfect men who clearly wrote what THEY thought was right, making obvious mistakes in the process because of their lack of knowledge at the time?
Then, having that in mind...
- Why can't a more general morality standard regarding sexuality be adopted that suits the 21st century better. Let's say, hum... sex between CONSENTING ADULTS is ok?
It's weird that you cannot even see why such a simple rule makes more sense than a "heterosexual married standard for sexual relationships"...
Aren't you able to think for yourself? You really need the opinion of 2,000+ year old people (NOT talking about Jesus) to make up your mind?
Finally, are you really comparing homosexual sex to... fucking kids!?
"How do you know EXACTLY what Jesus wanted/said/taught . . ."
ReplyDeleteIf we can’t trust the New Testament we can’t trust ANY writing from antiquity for the New Testament is better attested to by light years than any other writing of the time. As well, I think it’s better than saying, "Anything goes because for all we know Jesus might have advocated promiscuity.”
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“Why can't a more general morality standard regarding sexuality be adopted that suits the 21st century better. Let's say, hum... sex between CONSENTING ADULTS is ok?”
Ah yes, the 21st century standard that has brought us the AID's epidemic, abortion by the 100's of millions, broken families, broken lives all because two people thought it seemed like a good idea at the time.
My clients number literally in the thousands (the effected kids in the 10's of thousands) who have broken their families apart because they and someone who wasn’t their spouse CONSENTED to have an affair.
We humans are so stupid that we actually believe “Anything that feels this right can’t be wrong.” Some times, many times the only thing protecting someone from giving in to the temptation to go where they have no business going is a belief that God knows what’s best for me. 'I'm going to say no even though my whole being screams yes.'
I can’t even reply to your next couple statements without being insulting so I’ll just skip them.
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“Finally, are you really comparing homosexual sex to... fucking kids!?”
Oh the outrage! Only 50 years ago the same attitude was applied to homosexuality. In 40 years you will not feel the same shock and and horror as you do today.
I've sat with far too many 10 and 12 year olds who are fully consenting to give you a blow job or let you jerk off in her face if you’ll just pass over 20 dollars when you’re done. Then she'll go home and do her homework.
The issue before us, as it is for Sylvie is the belief that if we were born "that way," if that is the way that God made us, then it can’t be wrong. I’m saying that is a bogus argument.
More and more Christians are being convinced by their pagan neighbours that maybe, just like you've said here, some 2,000 year old book telling us that sex needs to be handled carefully and respectfully is not applicable anymore. The reason that the Bible is still relevant, perhaps more relevant than ever is that human nature is remarkably stable. The relationship issues spoken of in the Bible happen every day in every town. Relationship wise, nothing has changed nor will it ever change.
You're so naive, as if getting sex as part of a married relationship was the solution to all problems! We talk about it more, we see more stats, but the fact that people have sex without being married has NOTHING to do with what you mentioned concerning broken family or kids with problems. You confused ADULTERY with same-sex sexuality and people not being married.
ReplyDeleteSleeping left and right with anyone when you are in a relationship is not a good thing, I am pretty sure we all agree, why do you bring this up!?
Also, you think it was all wonderful before people could do what they want? You are really that naive? No, you are probably just stupid enough to not realize that lots of things were taboo.
Yes, that is an insult, you backward mentality that brought us to abortions in dark alleys, suicide by ridiculed homosexual, is to be mocked, exposed and ridiculed for what it is.
Sex DOES need to be handled carefully, but the Bible is the last thing that people should read in order to get advices on it. That's the whole point. Use your fucking brain, can't you?
“You're so naive,”
ReplyDeleteHmm, here I sit, bone weary from decades of exposure to the worst that humans have to offer and I’m being accused of naivety. Ah well, such is life.
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“as if getting sex as part of a married relationship was the solution to all problems!”
I never said that. I said that casual sex by consenting adults outside of the safety of marriage is the cause of many problems.
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“Sleeping left and right with anyone when you are in a relationship is not a good thing, I am pretty sure we all agree, why do you bring this up!?”
Not even between consenting adults? You’re such a prude! What happened to your “standard regarding sexuality be adopted that suits the 21st century better. Let's say, hum... sex between CONSENTING ADULTS is ok?”
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"I am pretty sure we all agree,"
You're pretty sure are you. So you think the AIDS epidemic 50% HPV rate among teens is caused by most people being really careful and responsible?
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Why do I bring it up? Because Sylvie, on her blog implied that causual sex with whom ever you please is a good thing, a thing that should be celebrated IF that’s the way we were born.
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“No, you are probably just stupid enough to not realize that lots of things were taboo.”
Yes, I know. What were once vices are now habits. What’s your point?
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“abortions in dark alleys,”
Because of what consenting adults were doing.
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“suicide by ridiculed homosexual,”
That truly is tragic. No one should be ridiculed for who they are. However, if you remember, the post was about Sylvie and Spong and an increasing number of people saying that who we are is good IF that’s the way we were born. I says that’s bogus.
"Hmm, here I sit, bone weary from decades of exposure to the worst that humans have to offer and I’m being accused of naivety. Ah well, such is life."
ReplyDeleteYes, naive to think that what you see NOW is terrible and worse than any other thing that happened before when people were less free, but more religious.
"I said that casual sex by consenting adults outside of the safety of marriage is the cause of many problems."
It's not!!!
Marriage does NOT provide any safety.
THAT is being naive.
"“Sleeping left and right with anyone when you are in a relationship is not a good thing, I am pretty sure we all agree, why do you bring this up!?”
Not even between consenting adults?"
You are fucking retarded.
You cant see the difference between something 'safe', 'good', 'harmful', 'tolerated', 'legal', etc... !??!
"You're pretty sure are you. So you think the AIDS epidemic 50% HPV rate among teens is caused by most people being really careful and responsible?"
THAT is the fucking point.
Religious sexual education has never ever done anything to help that.
It has been proven time and time again that abstinence onyl education, just to name that one, does NOT yield good result.
Yes, if every single human being were to sleep with one person their whole life, there would be less problem, but guess what, it WON'T EVER HAPPEN. So we can deal with it, try to make the world safer, or act as a retard like you and think that boohoo it's all the non-religious' fault.
"“No, you are probably just stupid enough to not realize that lots of things were taboo.”
Yes, I know. What were once vices are now habits. What’s your point?"
That was talking about how people used to NOT talk about their issues and problems.
Hence, there is not necessarly MORE problems, they are just exposed more.
Of course, the fact that wives were forced to have sex with they husbands for generations does not bother you right? That was safe sex under marriage I guess?
Again, you expose a simple way to see a complex issue. Grow up!
"“abortions in dark alleys,”
Because of what consenting adults were doing."
Because of RELIGIOUS convictions that a woman cannot have a baby without an husband, or a safe LEGAL abortion.
"“suicide by ridiculed homosexual,”
That truly is tragic. No one should be ridiculed for who they are. However, if you remember, the post was about Sylvie and Spong and an increasing number of people saying that who we are is good IF that’s the way we were born. I says that’s bogus."
What's tragic is that a person who just said he had "decades of exposure to the worst that humans have to offer" is not able to make the distinction between people born with an unacceptable behavior that is harful to society (pedophiles) and others who just happen to love people of the same sex.
Hint, the later is not the cause of any problem. It's people dealing with them who are the problem. The people who use old myths to decide what's good or not without looking at the REAL consequences.
"Hence, there is not necessarly MORE problems, they are just exposed more."
ReplyDeleteAh - I'm talking to an 18-year-old. Nuff said.
Sir, with all due respect (none...) go fuck yourself, you are a shame for all my theists friends out there. You expose a backward mentality that is detrimental for the world we live in and fail to even come close to challenge some of your pre-conceived ideas even when they clash with real facts. I know people like you don't discuss when faced with complex ideas, so I'm glad you have nothing to answer, it saves both of us some time! Run little boy run!
ReplyDeleteRun! I’m not running. I’m bowing in humble defeat before your complex arguments, i.e., the farther we get from objective Christian morals, values and duties, the closer we’ll come to your vision of utopia.
ReplyDeleteIt’s obvious. You win.
I’ve long believed that we get the families, communities and world that we deserve. That will surely happen - both in your case and in mine.
" I’m bowing in humble defeat before your complex arguments, i.e., the farther we get from objective Christian morals, values and duties, the closer we’ll come to your vision of utopia."
ReplyDeleteEverybody look! He is not completely retarded! There seems to be some brain power left in this empty head! He is able to use sarcasm!
However, we do see that you do not get the point, at all, so you do look like an idiot who's losing the argument.
You basically summarize my "complex" arguments as... the farther we get from Christian morals, the better.
That is so stupid.... If you are retarded enough to write something like that then no wonder you need an old book to help you think.
I showed an utopic vision of the world you say? Haha make me laugh... you the guy who believes in magic friends waiting for him when he dies, in a sinless world where everything is allright, for eternity... ohhhh... so cute!!
GROW UP!