Somebody referred me to a thing at Huffington Post written by an expert on God - an atheist. This might come as a surprise to you but this atheist says that God cannot be good if evil exists. The author of the article used the following example:
“Let's look at a real case of evil, that of Slobodan Milošević and his choice of genocide: only three scenarios are possible. One, god knew beforehand the choice Milošević would make and did nothing to prevent the outcome; two, god knew beforehand but could do nothing to change the outcome; or three, god did not know what choice Milošević would make. From these three possibilities we must come to a conclusion that is irrefutable, undeniable, and logically immune to any counterargument.”
Apparently this example serves as compelling evidence for our resident experts on God - atheists, that either God created evil or that God is Himself evil, or that God is powerless to stop evil. Actually, I can think of a more interesting example.
Jesus, God incarnate, our example and character goal, came to earth knowing in advance that He would be lied to, abused, misunderstood, mistreated, rejected, insulted, betrayed and ultimately have humanity do our absolute worst to Him. Yet He entered into a covenant relationship with us anyway because He loves us. Jesus, the only perfect, completely innocent and sinless human to ever exist allowed Himself to become sin, to absorb the evil of the entire history of human existence so that you and I might live in paradise with Him.
And this, THIS is what those who consider themselves to be experts on God - atheists, tell us is evidence of God’s evil nature.
In the last four years of interacting with atheists, I have yet to meet a single person who can think of even one good reason for allowing suffering / evil to be present in our existence.
Like four-year-olds, an atheist’s philosophy of life goes:
No difficulty = Good,
Difficulty = Bad, bad, very bad.
God, in the form of Jesus, came to earth with the expressed purpose of experiencing His own wrath as is required by the nature of sin:
“For the wages of sin, the consequences of sin, the result of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23.
God came to earth to show that He does not exist outside of this plan that seems so difficult for us to accept. God came to earth to rescue us from our stupid decision to try to live our lives without Him. He came to give us a second chance at paradise. Suffering, pain, and tragedy, play a role in taking hold of that second chance. It is a role that God Himself did not avoid.
Back to Milošević:
. Did God know what Milošević was going to do? Of course.
. Does that mean that God caused Milošević to do what he did? Of course not.
. Did He do anything to stop it? Obviously not.
. Does that mean that God is evil? To say that you would have to know
a) what is good as well as
b) knowing that the good that came out of the Milošević’s evil deeds did not outweigh the bad that came out of it.
Now atheists would have you believe that any difficulty, pain, suffering - even a hangnail is necessarily a bad thing. This is of course ridiculous. Hundreds of millions of people, and I would consider myself to be part of that group, will tell you that we would not trade the tragedy in our lives for anything. The learning and character growth and acquisition of wisdom and insight that could ONLY come about as a result of our suffering was well worth the cost. I have personally worked with thousands of individuals who have endured brutality worse than my own experience who would say the same thing.
As I stated in a post not long ago, I am completely on side with Paul when he said, “Because of the presence of Jesus in my suffering, I delight in the sorrows that have been a part of my life.”
The pain and loss from my own life have allowed me to answer in my own mind a very important question. A question that couldn’t have been answered in the absence of personal suffering.
- Will you love and worship Creator God because, and only because, He is worthy of love and worship?
“Even though He slay me, yet I will serve the Lord.”
- Will you worship Creator God without the “benefit” of God’s gifts, or the fear of God’s wrath?
“Even though He slay me, yet I will serve the Lord.”
- Is your faith genuine or is it contrived?
“Even though He slay me, yet I will serve the Lord.”
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"In the last four years of interacting with atheists, I have yet to meet a single person who can think of even one good reason for allowing suffering / evil to be present in our existence."
ReplyDeleteFWIW, here's my reason for allowing suffering and evil: We wouldn't know what good is without bad. We wouldn't consider anyone to be a kind person if there weren't mean people for comparison. We wouldn't appreciate days with good weather if we didn't have days with lousy weather. (Of course, one person's lousy weather is another person's good weather. The farmer welcomes the rain during a drought, but the bride and groom having the outdoor wedding do not.) We don't know we have good health until we see ours or someone else's taken away.
If all unjustified killing were to stop, then whatever we consider the next worst thing would be considered evil. If that thing stops, then the next worst thing becomes the most evil thing people are doing. It's all relative, and it has nothing to do with snakes or forbidden fruit or the master plan of any supreme being. It just is.
I think it's about freaking time that Thesauros realize that each and every single time an Atheist say something like 'God knew this' or 'God did not do that', etc...there should be a little asterisk next to God* to remind Thesauros that Atheists DO NOT BELIEVE GOD IS REAL. It is always discussing the idea that 'IF God WERE Real, then He would...' there is no 'God is like that so I don't like Him'. No, that's just silly...
ReplyDeleteOh well, as WEM said, Thesauros seems not to be lying after all, he's just not able to process other people' ideas; he cannot grasp this concept that Atheists really do not believe in his god... seriously... there is no denial, no anger, no wishes, no desire to sin, no, just... disbelief.
His Lordship was very explicit about it in the recent comments he made, joking about unicorns, Zeus or leprechaun, because that's exactly how Atheists perceive a fictional character like Jesus the guy who did miracles... (not the historical Jesus of course, that's another story...)
What fascinates me are all the posts that atheists write regarding all the other gods they don't believe in.
ReplyDeleteNo difficulty = good
ReplyDeletedifficulty = bad, bad, very bad
LOL, sure... Genocide is "difficult". I'm so tired of genocide, it's such a "bother", no it's "annoying", or perhaps a Its a "bummer". With religion all crazy thought is permissable.
What fascinates me is All the posts atheists write reguarding all the other gods they don't believe in.
ReplyDeletewhat else fascinates you? Oh, I know, neon lights, bubbles, crayons, and teething rings. These are safe assumptions. Any thoughts about a real debate? Would you like to explain how burning for an eternity works? I mean as far as finite agents "injected" into an infinity. There seems to be logical problems with this "process", and I was seeking your "expert" (lol) explanation. I await your "insightful" reply.
What fascinates me are all the posts that atheists write regarding all the other gods they don't believe in.
ReplyDeleteDon't lie. You're not "fascinated" by this at all. You're incensed that someone dare to question the veracity of your faith - and this is mostly because you know your own faith to be as feckless as we do.
You're fascinated by your own ability to twist the words of those who scare you into something which manages to reaffirm your faith. You're amazed that you can spin any statement into a lesson on scripture.
This is what your Bible calls "hubris". Couple it with an eagerness to lie about what those scary atheists are saying, and you end up with a person who incorrectly believes himself to be a practicing Christian.
It could be stupidity. It could be dishonesty. It's probably both, Hugo...
ReplyDeleteWhat fascinates me are all the posts that atheists write regarding all the other gods they don't believe in.
ReplyDeleteWhat fascinates me is that people like Thesauros still don't understand that atheists mostly write about PEOPLE who believe in gods...
Plus, if someone wants to talk about these people, and NOT misrepresent them or their beliefs, of course you need to talk about the gods they believe in...
Plus, in order to point out why something is impossible/irrational/unlikely, you do need to discuss that thing directly, not avoid it...
Thesauros is not able to do what comes after these 2 'Plus'.
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ReplyDelete@WEM, I don't see him as being dishonest, not anymore. We cannot agree on everything obviously ;)
ReplyDeleteOne word: Heaven.
ReplyDeleteAtheists do not contest the personal growth that accompanies hardships. What does that have to do with a god? Atheists simply wonder how a loving god can banish an individual to eternal hellfire. My question said it well...
ReplyDelete"how can a designer create a flawed design, then punish "his" creation for being flawed."
It was then you answered, "how would you do it differently." which is not only a means to avoid actually answering the question, but it's also an easy question to answer. But you can't understand my answer. You think I'm saying, "create existance without suffering", but this is not accurate.
What I'm actually saying is not intuitive to someone like yourself. I'm saying I'd design the rules of existance to equate prosperity and happiness without requiring the incorporation of suffering into the algorithmic Nature of existance itself. I'm saying, of course pain offers a better understanding towards euphoria in it's contrast, but only by gods decree. If a god with infinite power willed it, "he" could assign something like meditation as the highest means of aquiring understanding and personal gain, as opposed to the death of "millions" of starving kids annually.
Infinite power is an absurdity by the way. If god had to design a universe, how much flexibility would "he" have in creativity? Infinite, you could not have a range, this negates infinity by creating a finite range. SO, if god had an infinite number of choices, it must take an infinite amount of time to select a choice. Without a parameter to work within you could not make a choice. To extract a finite component from an infinite set negates infinity. A potential infinity can be composed of finite parts but not a true infinty. This is because no matter where along the infinite set you are, it can always be measured by it's finite parts. And finite does not become infinite.
Your thoughts?