1.6% of the North American population says that we can’t believe what the New Testament writers said because they were converts and obviously biassed. What this small population would never think to ask is,
Why were these people converts?
Why did these people become worshippers of Jesus?
What had they experienced that caused them to leave Judaism?
What had they experienced that made them willing to be put out of the Synagogue, the central anchor of life for the community?
What had they experienced that caused them to be willing to be tortured and killed for making claims about Jesus that this 1.6% of the population says is bogus.
Why don’t the dull of mind and slow of thought ask these questions? The answer is simple. They must hold to their implausible position or their world-view will collapse.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Some people ask this question: Why would a person who lived before Jesus believe in God in the first place, other than because his parents believed in God?
ReplyDeleteWithout a satisfactory answer to that question there's not much need to ask the others.
You mean other than there's no other reasonable explanation for why the universe exists?
ReplyDeleteIt's MAGIC!
ReplyDelete*Cough* God of the gaps
ReplyDelete"In the beginning" there were no explanations for many things (rainbows, weather, earthquakes, disease, etc.), other than "God did it." As humans have learned more about the natural world, various God Did It theories for natural occurrences have been proven wrong by science and eventually embraced by the Church. We are currently at a point in history where there isn't much the God Did It theorists can agree to hold on to besides the creation of the universe. I'm perfectly ok with "I don't know" when asked what created the universe. But since the God Did It side has zero wins in their column compared to the science side, I'm going with the winning team and assuming science may find the answer some day.
ReplyDeleteBut, for the sake of argument, let's assume I am convinced that God created the universe because there's no other logical explanation. I would still say there is no compelling evidence that God has interacted with the universe or communicated with any of its inhabitants in any way since he created it. I don't know if he died, or if he's busy creating other universes, or if he's just resting due to the amount of energy that was required for the Big Bang.
Since the Jews who lived in the first century didn't know what stars were and thought the sun revolved around the earth, I don't think their theories on the origin of the universe should be considered very reliable. If their parents and the leaders of their communities had told them the earth was really a giant terrarium in God's bedroom, and God decides when to turn on the fan to make the wind blow, or sprinkle some water to make it rain, they would have believed it.
Well, I don't want to get into some long drawn out explanation. You're going to believe what you want to believe and that's fine. I just want to say that this has nothing to do with what the Jews or anyone else believed. Either matter is eternal or the cause of matter is eternal. We know that matter cannot be eternal so . . .
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, say to you what I said to Hugo, Go enjoy your life, and don't worry one bit about what I say.
Well, I don't want to get into some long drawn out explanation.
ReplyDeletebecause he has nothing to offer...
You're going to believe what you want to believe and that's fine.
and yet he will claim that what you believe is stupid, illogical, without actually representing these beliefs correctly when trying to disprove them.
I just want to say that this has nothing to do with what the Jews or anyone else believed. Either matter is eternal or the cause of matter is eternal. We know that matter cannot be eternal so . . .
so . . . God did it.
Anyhow, say to you what I said to Hugo, Go enjoy your life, and don't worry one bit about what I say.
but at least he now admits that his position is not even worth discussing.
"Either matter is eternal or the cause of matter is eternal. We know that matter cannot be eternal so . . ."
ReplyDeleteI agree, the cause of matter is eternal. But what has that cause done since it caused matter to exist?
? 'Cause' as in 'event'?
ReplyDeleteOr 'cause' as in 'thing'?
And I don't see why it has to be eternal?
My grandparents didn't have to be eternal to be involved in making me, yet here I am.
No, Anon, non-magic stuff, i.e. "reality" hadn't been invented so the man who invented reality therefore isn't real and is magic. It's easy. Stop thinking.
ReplyDeleteThey must avoid the topic at all cost or else their world view will collapse.
ReplyDeleteOk, I'll try to answer the original questions in the post.
ReplyDelete"Why were these people converts?"
They were eventually convinced Jesus was the son of God.
"Why did these people become worshippers of Jesus?"
Before he died it was because they thought he was a pretty good prophet. After he died they were eventually convinced he was the son of God.
"What had they experienced that caused them to leave Judaism?"
As I understand it, the original followers were considered to be a minority sect of Judaism. But yes, eventually the people of that sect dropped a lot of the Judaism stuff and basically left Judaism. Why, because they were eventually convinced Jesus was the son of God, and they developed some new traditions and practices as a result of that.
"What had they experienced that made them willing to be put out of the Synagogue, the central anchor of life for the community?"
Probably something similar to what the initial followers of most other startup religions experience: Lots of groupthink regarding a supreme being, initially proposed by one or more very convincing individuals.
"What had they experienced that caused them to be willing to be tortured and killed for making claims about Jesus that this 1.6% of the population says is bogus."
Those who can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities (either against yourself or others). Also see groupthink comment above.
"Group think"
ReplyDeleteOh, right, "My buddies said, "Let's make up this lie about Jesus rising from the dead. It'll get us kicked out of the community and we'll be arrested, tortured and probably killed but it'll be a blast." I wasn't too sure at first but since they were doing it I thought I'd do it too."
You know people die for lies all the time.
ReplyDeleteIf there wasn't aliens ready to take the faithful to B away, why were there converts to Heavens Gate?
ReplyDeleteWhy were they willing to lay down their lives?
Why were they willing to leave their community to study with the Heavens Gate?
I'm serious, think about these questions.
Why don’t the dull of mind and slow of thought ask these questions? The answer is simple. They must hold to their implausible position or their world-view will collapse.
You simply are not capable of seeing the difference between being conned / lied too / believing someone else's lie, and being the originater of a lie - are you?
ReplyDeleteYou can't see it.
It just doesn't compute.
The disciples died, according to you, for something that was THEIR lie. No one told them that Jesus was risen from the dead. THEY were the ones that told other people. It began with them and, according to you, every single one of them stuck to the lie right to the bitter end, even as one after the other they endured deprivation, loss of status and eventually death for this lie. Not one of them recanted.
According to you, a lie that originates with you and is perpetuated by you is no different than someone else's lie that you believe - right? People are equally likely to die for eithe one - yes? That is what you're saying, right?
. How could the tomb be empty because of their lie?
. How could Jesus' enemies agree that the tomb was empty because of this lie.
. The sceptic and Christian killer Paul was converted, endured years of hardship and torture and finally beheading by Nero because of HIS lie that he encountered the risen Christ. Do you honestly believe that?
. The FAMILY members of Jesus were willing to endure public ridicule and death or banishment for being in on this lie regarding seeing the risen Jesus - according to you. They weren't convinced by someone else that Jesus rose from the dead. They said that THEY saw Him alive. It was, according to you, their lie.
The followers of Jesus, liars to a man, even watched their own families killed (Peter's wife was crucified just prior to his own execution) because of the lie that he and his friends had made up yet, to a man, not one of them confessed that what they were claiming about Jesus' resurrection was false.
No money.
No fame.
No power.
Nothing of earthly value was theirs because of this lie, yet, they stayed the course.
Their lie. Not someone else's.
Their con. Not someone else's.
According to you, there isn't any difference.
B and M started Heaven's Gate. They died too.
ReplyDeleteWe don't actually know the all the disciples were died for their beliefs.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of those stories are medieval myths.
Hell, all you have are stories. You believe that these people believe. You have no way of actually knowing.
You know that you're going to get there. Why not just jump right to "Jesus and those who wrote the New Testament never existed."
ReplyDeleteWhen you have no hope of answering historical events that conflict with your world view, denying the existence of those events is the easiest route to go. I don't know why you didn't start out with that statement.
BTW how are you with the holocaust? Can that stay or do you need to do away with that as well?
You know we have living eyewitnesses and ACTUAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE for the holocaust, right?
ReplyDeleteYou are totally afraid of the truth, that's why you don't open your eyes and examine your magical beliefs with any kind of honesty.
You are afraid of reality so you pick a minority you can demonise.
If the Heavens Gate was a lie, why did its creators happily die for it?
ReplyDeleteRod,
ReplyDeleteIf you want to honestly discuss the idea of dying for a lie you know is a lie, I invite you to read this blog post:
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/09/why-martyrs.html
Yes it is quite long... but it's worth it.
Then come back here, and try to convince your readers that you still think it's impossible to die for a lie, even if one knows it is a lie.
"You know we have living eyewitnesses and ACTUAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE for the holocaust, right?"
ReplyDeleteOf course I know that. But just like atheists do with Jesus, that doesn't stop Holocaust deniers from saying that it didn't happen - Does It.
As well, the appeal to eyewitnesses is EXACTLY what Paul and John and Luke said as well. For example:
"Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were EYEWITNESSES and servants of Jesus. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know beyond the shadow of a doubt the reliability of what you were taught." Luke
“The king is familiar with these things, and I can speak freely to him. I am convinced that none of this has escaped his notice, because it was not done in a corner.” Paul at his trial Acts 26:1-25 - I suggest you read this.
“ . . . and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, MOST OF WHOM ARE STILL LIVING, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles . . .” Paul
Paul only mentions those who are still living as an invitation to those who are having trouble believing. He is saying, ‘If you don’t believe me go ask those eyewitnesses who are still living.’
Of course this is where atheists join not only the holocaust deniers, but the conspiracy theorists as well, i.e., none of this happened. All the independent documents that were later included into what we now call the New Testament were written by liars, deceivers and frauds to make it look like documents concerning a real person Jesus. In reality, according to atheists, neither Jesus nor the his followers ever existed. Like I said, denying His existence is so much easier than trying to explain away historical events that contradict your world view.
=================
Like I've said before Hugo, you're convinced that you're right so go and enjoy the rest of this life, because for you, this life is as good as it's going to get.
Like I've said before Hugo, you're convinced that you're right so go and enjoy the rest of this life, because for you, this life is as good as it's going to get.
ReplyDeleteLetting me down? Repent you sinner! Don't you think that the Lord your God is not watching you, not testing you? Everything we do is part of God's plan. Perhaps your task is to keep propagating the word good news, and fight the godless demons that will come to fight you.
But the most important point here is:
How can you know what is the good thing to do?
By the way, you could at least try to be consistent... because you claim, at the same time, that some people hold a certain worldview and will not let it go, but you don't picture id adequately, and when people try to explain to you what the correct picture is, you tell them to go away, haha, ironic.
ReplyDeleteI think there is significantly more proof outside of the Bible for the existence of
ReplyDeleteJesus than there is for his resurrection, which is why I believe there likely was a
historical Jesus. But I believe in the resurrection of Jesus about as much as I believe in the resurrections of the holy people described in Matthew 27:51-53.
The reason I don't consider the New Testament authors to be reliable from a historical standpoint is because they lived in a time when stories about miracles, and people apparently believing in miracles, were commonplace. Stories about supernatural events, written 2000 years ago by people who believed in a supreme being (without the benefit of what we know today about how the natural world works) are not considered a good source by me, regardless of how many people were involved or what consequences they suffered. (BTW, I don't think the apostles had martyrdom on their minds as the resurrection story was evolving.)
Stories evolve and the truth stretches a little here and there, such that those in the middle of it can't see how far away from the truth they've gotten. They've been hearing and telling the revised version so long they really, truly believe it's true, to the point where they could pass a lie detector test.
Christians believe Jesus was resurrected. Mormons believe Joseph Smith found some gold plates. Muslims believe Allah spoke to Mohammed in a cave. Although Christianity may have the most support from a historical standpoint, one reason atheists put all those religions in the same category is because the originators all believed in a supreme being. If I believed in the Abrahamic God there's a good chance I'd be a Christian, but until someone can get me over that hurdle of believing in the God of the Old Testament, I will admit that I may not be able to look objectively at the case for the resurrection.
So now I've made it even easier to convert me and convince me how implausible my position is. I already said I believe God created the universe but hasn't interacted with it in any way since it was created. I'll add to that and say if God has been interacting with the universe, Jesus surely is his son. Now all you have to do is convince me that God interacted with the universe one time before Jesus was born, or one time after his ascension. Well, now that I think about it, I'm going to proactively move the goalposts one time. If we get into the origin of life, which is similar to the "something from nothing" argument regarding the creation of the universe, I'll begrudgingly give that one to God, too, in order to keep the discussion going. But that's it. That was his last earthly interaction.
Sounds great, I think I am Deist now, thx Brap ;)
ReplyDeleteI had a Christian blogger call me a Deist for the first time last month when I also conceded to him that God created the universe but hasn't done jack since then. I was initially taken aback, but I got over it.
ReplyDeleteIf that's the label I have to be stuck with in order to get someone to try to convince me the Bible was divinely inspired, instead of remaining stuck on the "something can't come from nothing" argument, so be it.
I had a Christian blogger call me a Deist for the first time last month when I also conceded to him that God created the universe but hasn't done jack since then. I was initially taken aback, but I got over it.
ReplyDeleteIf that's the label I have to be stuck with in order to get someone to try to convince me the Bible was divinely inspired, instead of remaining stuck on the "something can't come from nothing" argument, so be it.
There is not much difference between a Deist and an Atheist really, so I understand what you mean completely. At that point, discussions become philosophical only, and don't have a real impact on one's life decisions.
But more importantly, you said the right thing: "label". It's just a label, nothing more... Only dogmatic fundamentalist stick to their label as if it was the only True one deserving attention and support.
Brap
ReplyDeleteThis will be hard to answer without sounding snotty or evasive. But since your about ready to convert to Christianity I will try to answer this as best as I can?
One of the effects of the fall (original sin) is that it separated us from God. So I'm not even sure God owes us interaction? But, that separation did make God want a way to mend it. So that process of restoring the relationship would require a "relationship restorer". (I just made that up). Yes you guessed it, Jesus Christ is that "relationship restorer".
He then chose a race of people to become a Kingdom of Priests, and out of these people Christ would be ushered into the world.
If we decide to reject God's plan either before or after the cross we will still have a separated relationship with Him. But those before or after the cross that are down with God's plan can have a restored relationship with their creator.
Does God interact with us? Hmm, good question. He certainly interacted with Adam and Eve, Noah, Enoch, Moses and the Prophets. He then came to Earth in the form of a man and interacted with many people.
But what about now? Damn, these are good questions, uh, I think God created us in His image, and when He did that, he gave you the ability to communicate with Him. That's what makes you different from monkeys, dogs or rats. I also believe He gave us a conscience to bear witness of your feelings and thoughts. And I believe God has implanted His knowledge inside of us. Ecc. 3:11 says ..."He has set eternity in the hearts of men... Job 32:8 says "But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding".
So how much evidence do you require and where does faith play a part. Although the Bible clearly says without faith it is impossible to please God. My faith is strong, but there is also plenty of evidence to convince me that God is real and desires a relationship with me. So how much faith do I really have? Just a little is required I guess?
Lastly, and there is no way to prove this, but we don't know how God has intervened in our lives. We may look back when it's all over and see all the times where God did help out and we just never knew it?
OK, now that your born again you can start to work on Hugo.
'Sup Hugo, nice to see you around the block.
Dueces, feeno
Yes, just a little faith is all. Just a slight nudge in the direction of the lord will show you that it's just common sence that god created the first two humans, who were fooled into eating from a magic tree which opened this pandoras box of pain. Then god turns himself into his own son, who grows up and performs street magic, and claims that if he kills himself, everybody in history will have their criminal record erased in exchange for our willingness to believe that this guy is gods kid. Plus, we all get the power to telepathically whisper magic wishes to the creator of ALL the cosmos (who is of course, listening) and wait for him to grant them. Meanwhile, we anticipate what god wants us to do while we wait for him to get out of the bathroom and come for us. And of course what god wants is for us to stop gay people from getting married, cut the skin from around our dicks, and eat magic crackers that morph into jesus's actual flesh upon salival contact....
ReplyDeleteYes, I get your point, it only takes a little faith for a story like that.
Snack
ReplyDelete"Street Magic"? If Jesus did nifty card tricks or stood on top of a building some where for a couple of days, He might have gotten His own cable show, but nobody would have confused Him for God.
You can also be a Christian and not care if two Homosexuals wanna get married. Also not all Christians subscribe to Transubstantiation. And since I've been old enough to defend myself, nobody has gotten near my krank with any sharp objects.
So maybe there could be a Christian church out there for you too?
Peace in Mississippi, feeno
feeno - Thanks for trying to answer my questions, but you lose me in your first sentence when you mention original sin. I don't see how the story of original sin holds up without the creation story (Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, etc.) being accepted as literal instead of figurative, and I agree with the Christians who believe the creation story is figurative.
ReplyDeleteSo how do we get burdened with original sin (which I understand is different than actual sin) if the creation story is figurative?
feeno - Thanks for trying to answer my questions, but you lose me in your first sentence when you mention original sin.
ReplyDeleteThat the exact same reaction that I had.
Thanks for the story feeno but there is not much new there. I personally do not believe in any god but I would not have a problem being a deist, someone who believes that there is an intelligent force behind the universe. I don't see what's the value of that hypothesis so I discard it, but I don't have problem with people who think it's more probable than the opposite.
But going from that to accepting Genesis as being literal... oh boy, that's a huge jump! We are not talking only about accepting the supernatural, we are also talking about disregarding most of the facts that I learned, judged, and accepted or refused, during my entire life.
Denying huge parts of the real world we live in is bad for us all.