“God, I know surely that You do not exist. But if perchance You exist, which I contest, it is not my duty to believe in You; it is Your duty to reveal Yourself to me.”
The then Jewish atheist Richard Wurmbrand
Mr. Wurmbrand went on to become one of the world’s greatest evangelists and founder of Voice of the Martyrs which is currently active in 80 restricted countries. His books promoting Jesus as Messiah have been translated into more than 50 languages.
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Been there, tried that - FOR A DECADE. Nothing.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that God revealed Himself to Richard because of his challenge, but in spite of his challenge. The Bible is clear that we come to God on His terms, not ours.
ReplyDeleteSo in your worldview, God hides from people so he can torture them? Nice.
ReplyDeleteHe's not hiding at all. For those who are seeking, He's as plain as the universe, as plain as Jesus the Christ who said,
ReplyDelete"I and Creator God are one and the same. If you have seen Me, you have seen Creator God."
He then followed that claim up with proofs and signs that could have ONLY taken place in the presence of and under the power of Creator God.
Your Creator said, "I take no delight in the death of the wicked, so turn from your sins and live."
Your Creator did everything possible to allow you to avoid eternity in hell. In fact, as I've said before, if you wind up in hell, you'll have had to step over the dead body of Jesus to get there.
As things stand now, the situation is this:
. You're on your way to hell
. Jesus has made it possible for you to avoid that scenario
. What are you going to do about it?
"If you have seen Me, you have seen Creator God."
ReplyDeleteAnd Jesus never showed himself to me so that is moot.
"Your Creator did everything possible to allow you to avoid eternity in hell."
If by "your creator" you mean God, then no, God hasn't done everything possible. If fact, the universe looks the same as a universe without a god. It is unlikely that gods exist.
And Jesus never showed himself to me so that is moot.
ReplyDeleteAnd you just assume that those who died for what they saw were lying about that?
People have died for a lot of things.
ReplyDelete"People have died for a lot of things."
ReplyDeleteFor THEIR OWN lie?
Every single one of them? Not one caved and said, "We made it up. We really didn't see Jesus alive."
Not one of them caved.
Every single one of them? Not one caved and said, "We made it up. We really didn't see Jesus alive."
ReplyDeleteI'm a different anon but I wanna ask.
How do you know this?
Seriously, how?
Because we have a historical record of what happened to them. As well, we have the existence of the Christian Church. Do you really think the Christian movement would have taken off if several of Jesus' closest followers had said, "Ah, actually this was all a lie." even while being tortured?
ReplyDeleteI certainly don't think so.
Do you think the Christian movement would have taken off if His body was still in the tomb?
I don't think so.
Do you think the Christian movement would have taken off if Jesus' own family, people who had once thought He was insane, hadn't made an about turn and began to worship Him as Messiah?
I certainly don't think so.
Religious movements DO take off even if the original followers are lying.
ReplyDelete"I'm a different anon but I wanna ask.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know this?
Seriously, how?"
He "knows" the same way people from other religions "know" their stories are true.
He doesn't know.
Most of the stories of martyrdom are of medieval origin.
"Do you think the Christian movement would have taken off if Jesus' own family, people who had once thought He was insane, hadn't made an about turn and began to worship Him as Messiah?"
ReplyDeleteYOU, Thesauros, gave the example of Joseph Smith a few weeks ago.
YOU mentioned that everyone around him admited they were lying.
Are you claiming that nobody is really a Mormon?
How can you NOT see that you are making exceptions for you own pet religion?
Face it, all you got is hope; hope that you'll be in Heaven after death.
You don't have facts.
You don't have evidence.
You have faith, and you have people who think like you to help confirm that this faith is "correct".
“How do you know this?”
ReplyDeleteWell, compared to modern forms of evidence, the accounts that we have of Jesus life are very impressive (no video / audio etc.).
However, in comparison to other works of antiquity the number and accuracy of accounts of Jesus’ life are almost embarrassing in comparison. Like 30,000 to 12 with another 1,000,000 quotes existing in other sources. There really is no comparison.
If you want me to, I can write it for you but it really is a lot.
Christianity is unique among religions in the fact that it’s the only religion that is grounded in history. Christianity invites investigation. No other religion can do that. And those that try, like Mormon pays a heavy price. For example there is not even one example, not one single example of corroborating or confirming historical evidence to back up the claims of Joseph Smith when he say this happened in that place. In contrast take a look at this:
http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/08/can-you-trust-luke.html
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“Most of the stories of martyrdom are of medieval origin.”
Well, maybe they are but these are not. For example, we have this from Hippolytus - Cyprian, Novatian, Appendix [ECF 1.5.0.2.3.0].
“Peter preached the Gospel in Pontus, and Galatia, and Cappadocia, and Betania and Italy, and Asia, and was afterwards crucified by Nero in Rome with the head downward, as he had himself desired to suffer in that manner.
Andrew preached to the Sythians and Thracians, and was crucified, suspended on an olive tree at Patrae, and town of Achaia; and there too he was buried.
John, again, in Asia was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.
James, Jesus brother, when preaching in Judea, was cut off with the sword by Herod the tetrarch, and was buried there.
Philip preached in Phygia, and was crucified in Hierapolis with his head downward in the time of Domitian, and was buried there.
Bartholomew again, preached to the Indians, to whom he also gave the Gospel according to
Matthew, and was crucified with his head downward. And was buried in Allanum, a town of the great Armeia.
And Mattheous wrote the Gospel in the Hebrew tongue, and published it at Jerusalem, and fell asleep at Hierees, a town of Pathia.
And Thomas preached to the Pathians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians and Margians and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spear at Clamene, the city of India, and was buried there.
And James the son of Alphaeus, when preaching in Jerusalem, was stoned to death by the Jews, and was buried there beside the temple.
Jude who is also called Lebbaeus, preached to the people of Edessa, and to all Mesopotamia and fell asleep at Berytus, and was buried there.
Simon the Zealot, the son of Clopas, who is also called Jude, became bishop of Jerusalem after James the Just, and fell asleep and was buried there.
And Matthias who was one of the seventy, was numbered along with the eleven apostles, and preached in Jerusalem, and fell asleep and was buried there.
And Paul entered into the apostleship a year after the assumption of Christ; and beginning at Jerusalem, he advanced as far as Illyricum, and Italy and Spain preaching the Gospel for thirty five years. And in the time of Nero he was beheaded at Rome, and was buried there.”
These reports are corroborated by other sources, both enemies and supporters of the faith. As you may or may not know, to have information corroborate by one's enemies is the highest form or corroboration - at least as it's views by our court system.
“YOU mentioned that everyone around him admited they were lying. Are you claiming that nobody is really a Mormon?”
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I think that it was six out of his eleven closest followers admitted that Smith was lying. My experience has been that most Mormons don’t know this just like they know very, very little about their “faith.” They don’t know the stance that it used to have regarding African Americans or on many other issues. Thousands of Mormons have left the faith precisely because they've discovered these faults. When I think about it, every Mormon I know has joined the Church because of its strong pro family stance. It has nothing to do with the teaching of the Church. They certainly don't know about the secret underwear of the Priests etc.
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“You don't have facts. You don't have evidence.”
What does that even mean? Do I have irrefutable, overwhelming, compelling evidence that is beyond all doubt? Of course not. You don't have that for what you believe either. But to say that I don’t have facts or evidence is ridiculous.
This is just one small example.
http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2010/01/science-search-for-cause.html
LOL at using Pseudo-Hippolytus!
ReplyDeleteAnd why would you ignore the comment under it. This same information is found in several other sources (three names here, two there) including those of the enemies of Christianity. At least here they are all in one place.
ReplyDelete"Do I have irrefutable, overwhelming, compelling evidence that is beyond all doubt? Of course not. You don't have that for what you believe either."
ReplyDeleteDo you say that for all the Anonymous commentators on your blog???
Are you claiming you are omniscient???
Mmm, I don't think so. It's just the nature of beliefs and ultimate questions. If yours is different I'd be happy to hear about it.
ReplyDelete