That’s because growth in character NEVER happens in the absence of pain.
Christian maturity is not something that just happens. Yes, it is God Whose power works in us to enable us to be transformed and conformed into the likeness of Jesus. However, we must put effort and desire into developing knowledge, and self-control, and patience and joy, peace, kindness, gentleness etc.
“Suffering produces endurance or patience, endurance produces the kind of character that has been through the fire and proven it’s value, and character brings about hope which does not disappoint.”
James 1:2-4 / 2nd Peter 1:5-8
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Knowledge? Why?
ReplyDeleteThe only knowledge that matters is the Bible in your simple worldview. Any extra knowledge can only make you more prone to disbelieve the Bible's stories.
Self-control, patience, joy, peace, kindness, gentleness... great, but if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, if one does not believe the same things you do, then it's pointless, nothing else matters. Nobody is good. We live in a fallen creation. Everything sucks, except if you believe, have faith, in Jesus.
Good for you. You must feel so special!
“Any extra knowledge can only make you more prone to disbelieve the Bible's stories.”
ReplyDeleteHow so?
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“if one does not believe the same things you do, then it's pointless, nothing else matters.”
Close - If one does not believe, accept and act upon what Jesus taught, then it’s pointless.
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“Nobody is good. We live in a fallen creation. Everything sucks, except if you believe, have faith, in Jesus.”
Again, close - Pain and suffering, loss and tragedy suck, except if you have Jesus walking with you in and through these realities of living in a fallen world. Faith is not meant to give you good feelings. Faith sustains a person in the absence of good feelings.
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“Good for you. You must feel so special!”
I feel blessed. Do you know the difference?
“Any extra knowledge can only make you more prone to disbelieve the Bible's stories.”
ReplyDeleteHow so?
Lol, really?
What about the fact that most Christians switched from a literal view of Genesis to a symbolic one after learning more about the world using scientific means?
Oh sure, you still think that the universe points to a Creator, but that's because you are biased in seeing design everywhere you look. Everything from rocks, neutron stars or human eyes is designed, just like clocks, cars or novels; it's just the designer that varies...
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“if one does not believe the same things you do, then it's pointless, nothing else matters.”
Close - If one does not believe, accept and act upon what Jesus taught, then it’s pointless.
Not close; same thing! Every single thing that every non-believer is doing is pointless for you.
We can talk to each other, love each others, learn about the world, travel everywhere, but if we don't accept the same God as you, nothing matters.
Ironically, you will label me as having no purpose in life, as having something 'as good as it can get', while you have something more, something special, that only you can get, because you chose to believe, yet that believes makes you see everything else as pointless. You claim to have a better life since starting to believe 30 years ago, that's great, but why did it suddenly make everyone else pointless?
Oh but wait, it's not that simple, we also have to let Jesus work through us, because only with him can we do all that... and we also have to try to act like him, but we will never succeed because we suck balls and are not deserving anything else than hell.
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“Good for you. You must feel so special!”
I feel blessed. Do you know the difference?
Not really. From my understanding of 'blessed'; it's special but in a spiritual way, someone who has been given a blessing by God or by a religious patron here on Earth. So that would make you even more special...
“Not close; same thing!”
ReplyDeleteOnly if what I believe agrees with what Jesus taught. If there is a discrepancy between the two, you would be a fool to choose what I believe over what Jesus taught.
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“Every single thing that every non-believer is doing is pointless for you. We can talk to each other, love each others, learn about the world, travel everywhere, but if we don't accept the same God as you, nothing matters.”
As Jesus said, “How can it be a benefit to anyone if they gain the whole world but lose their soul?”
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“Ironically . . . hell”
Too rambling and incoherent. Sounds like someone who’s angry over the concept of grace.
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“I feel blessed. Do you know the difference?”
If I was special, I would have somehow earned my salvation. If I was special, I could think of myself as being a better person than you and THAT would be why I was saved and not you.
In fact, and you would probably agree, I was a far worse person (and perhaps still am as these things are determined) who absolutely and beyond doubt has done nothing to deserve salvation - yet here I am - blessed by the grace and mercy and love of my Lord and Saviour, Messiah Jesus.
“Not close; same thing!”
ReplyDeleteOnly if what I believe agrees with what Jesus taught. If there is a discrepancy between the two, you would be a fool to choose what I believe over what Jesus taught.
Even if I were to agree that Jesus was who he said he was, I would have no way to know exactly what he taught. However, there is no need for such discussion as I don't think he had any supernatural power in the first place. Therefore, what he taught is pointless, what people believe is not.
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As Jesus said, “How can it be a benefit to anyone if they gain the whole world but lose their soul?”
Any evidence that a soul exists?
Plus, if it does not, then you waste the only thing you have to cherish, life, to entertain a delusion. Kind of a reverse Pascal's wager if you will...
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“Ironically . . . hell”
Too rambling and incoherent. Sounds like someone who’s angry over the concept of grace.
Lol, agreed for the rambling part! The problem with commenting on blog is that I probably think of 5 times more things to say that I actually write, and then end up scrapping half of it because it would be too long...
So no, I am not angry at all over the concept of grace or any religious concept whatsoever. Very little makes me angry actually...
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... I was a far worse person (and perhaps still am as these things are determined) who absolutely and beyond doubt has done nothing to deserve salvation - yet here I am - blessed by the grace and mercy and love of my Lord and Saviour, Messiah Jesus.
I as often say, and just mentioned on the other post actually, I do acknowledge that for you, finding Jesus seems to have been a wonderful thing, which made you be a better person.
It also makes you feel better about the wrong things you did in the past, as you have access to grace. That's where I am not so sure that it's a good thing. In a way it's good that you see your past flaws better, but at the same time, it seems to be a very easy way to clear your conscience. Being responsible for your actions should be more than that. You deserve forgiveness in my opinion, but people you hurt deserve reparation too, whatever that could be. I have absolutely no idea if you ever did that or even thought of that?
"you waste the only thing you have to cherish, life,"
ReplyDeleteJust how exactly am I wasting my life?
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"I do acknowledge that for you, finding Jesus seems to have been a wonderful thing, which made you be a better person."
Ya, delusions are known for doing that. They make murderers love, theives become honest, adulterers become faithful, liars tell the truth. Over a billion people - all with the same delusion - all with the same effect.
http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/09/that-jesus-is-alive-is-scientifically.html
ReplyDelete"you waste the only thing you have to cherish, life,"
ReplyDeleteJust how exactly am I wasting my life?
It depends how we look at it. I would never say you completely waste it, since several religious activities are just as useful as any other form of entertainment in my opinion, so I am in no position to claim that somebody wastes their life because of the choices they make. It's relative to the rest of your life and the impact it has on it.
However, because I consider truth and knowledge to be precious treasures we should constantly seek, I consider that religion make people waste part of their life by preventing access to them. Worse even, it replaces truth by myths. But again, it depends on how badly someone is indoctrinated.
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"I do acknowledge that for you, finding Jesus seems to have been a wonderful thing, which made you be a better person."
Ya, delusions are known for doing that. They make murderers love, theives become honest, adulterers become faithful, liars tell the truth. Over a billion people - all with the same delusion - all with the same effect.
First of all, it's funny when you claim that over a billion people share the same delusion, an obvious allusion to the fact that there are more than a billion Christian on Earth, because after reading your blog for so long it's clear that you are not like the rest of the billion Christians... there are way too many types of Christians that are 'functional atheists' as you used to say for you to use the 1 billion number!
In any case, the number does not matter really, because even if you write sarcastically about delusions causing good things, I really don't see a problem with the idea. You are the best example I have ever ran into! You really think that because the outcome of your spiritual transformation was good it is necessarily caused by something other than a delusion? Are you really that... delusional? ;-)
It's just simple logic anyway. And as my own girlfriend says, it's comforting to think that there is someone taking care of us all, guiding us in bad times and inspiring us in good ones. Whether it's real or not is not always important...
Concerning the link to...
ReplyDeletehttp://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/09/that-jesus-is-alive-is-scientifically.html
... no time to read that right now, I did not expect a long post on Jesus being alive "scientifically". I don't remember reading it so it will be fun to.
But I guess you won't care about any comments right?
"more than a billion Christian on Earth,"
ReplyDeleteThere are well over 2 billion people that call themselves Christians. I’m allowing for half of those to be pretenders. So I’m still saying that it’s ludicrous to maintain that a delusion produces radical character transformations, the kind of improvement that includes humility and not pride; gratefulness and not arrogance, thankfulness and not a sense of self-sufficiency.
You have serious reading comprehension skills.
ReplyDelete...the number does not matter ... You really think that because the outcome of your spiritual transformation was good it is necessarily caused by something other than a delusion? Are you really that... delusional?
"the number does not matter"
ReplyDeleteSo why did you bring it up?
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You’re the one who said that Christians going from deceit to honesty, from hatred to love, from loving sin to despising sin, from mocking God to worshipping Him, to become people who possess characters of integrity to the point that the only fault fools can find in them is their belief in Jesus as Messiah, who have become transparent and consistent in thought and behaviour. These are people whose past behaviours make people gasp, yet who now abhor every false way and eagerly chase after that which is right, you are the one who says that this consistent, pervasive and persistent transformation has been brought about by a mental illness.
Check the DSM Hugo. There is not a mental illness in the world, including delusions that bring about an improvement in one’s character or an increase in ability to function.
"the number does not matter"
ReplyDeleteSo why did you bring it up?
Terrible reading comprehension skills... again.
I was laughing at the fact that YOU brought it up!
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I don't generalize, so let's see what you wrote with respect to a Christian like you...
You’re the one who said that Christians going from deceit to honesty,
You don't appear completely honest to me. You never acknowledge bad information you have written on your blog, just to name that.
...from hatred to love...,
except that you don't love, at all, people who are not Christians, and Christians like you I should say. Oh of course you will claim that you do, just in case Jesus is listening, but you classify every atheists in the same basket and express terrible view of all of them at once, i.e. you are a bigot, and that's not love.
...from loving sin to despising sin...
That does not even make sense. Nobody literaly loves sin, because sin is simply a word that means 'bad things' but with a religious connotation added to it.
...from mocking God to worshipping Him...
Who care, if you believe in a certain god you will worship him, it's a tautology.
... to become people who possess characters of integrity to the point that the only fault fools can find in them is their belief in Jesus as Messiah...
LOL, really? The ONLY fault I see in your is your belief in Jesus!? I don't even see that as a fault you stupid moron! How can you be so retarded as to write that down? You're cracking me up...
...who have become transparent and consistent in thought and behaviour...
Hilarious again. You are NOT consistent. One simple example: you claim to follow scientific evidence where they lead, and then conclude that the universe was designed. The next day, you talk about Adam and Eve as if they were real people...
... These are people whose past behaviours make people gasp, yet who now abhor every false way and eagerly chase after that which is right...
Not at all! I don't believe in an absolute right/wrong. It's all human conventions. So when we agree fine, when we don't fine, but explain why... yet the only explanation will be GOD!
you are the one who says that this consistent, pervasive and persistent transformation has been brought about by a mental illness.
Check the DSM Hugo. There is not a mental illness in the world, including delusions that bring about an improvement in one’s character or an increase in ability to function.
And finally, the icing on the cake... No, that is not what I meant. No need to be mentally ill to be influenced by a false belief... think of more simple examples!
Oh well, I'll stop here because what's the point of correcting you, you would still not understand... Your reading comprehension skills are really really bad, I had not noticed that as much before this week.
Happy Easter! :-)
“completely honest”
ReplyDeleteTypical atheist - Don’t look at the degree of change - Demand perfection and if you see a Christian who isn't perfect then they can’t claim to follow Jesus.
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“Nobody literaly loves sin,”
Typical atheist - Not a clue about h/her own sinful drives and desires
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“you stupid moron! How can you be so retarded as to write that down?”
Typical atheist - talking of those with disabilities in a disparaging manner.
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“I don't believe in an absolute right/wrong.”
Typical atheist - making up the rules as you go along.
Thankfully, you are NOT a typical Christian!
ReplyDeleteDon’t look at the degree of change - Demand perfection and if you see a Christian who isn't perfect then they can’t claim to follow Jesus.
Nobody is perfect; finding Jesus does not change anything.
Not a clue about h/her own sinful drives and desires
I am fully aware that I dot bad things sometimes, and try not to. What's the difference with an imperfect Christian? what's the difference with any other person?
That's the point, 99% of the people (I hope) intend to do bad.
talking of those with disabilities in a disparaging manner
I am just talking to YOU, and about YOU.
You have a disability that prevent you from being logical?
You cannot read?
Sorry, I did not know that, you are very pretentious for somehow with these problems.
“I don't believe in an absolute right/wrong.”
Typical atheist - making up the rules as you go along.
Yes, I make rules as I go along, because rules need contexts. Too bad you're disable and not able to do that.
I guess it's easier when you have a book and rely on others to tell you what's good or not.. I pity you.