Store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven
where moth and rust cannot destroy and thieves cannot break in and steal

Saturday, April 30, 2011

“We see something that I call “discoverability.” By that I mean that the laws of nature have been carefully arranged so that they can be discovered by beings with our level of intelligence. That not only hits the idea of design, but it also suggests a providential purpose for human kind - that is, to learn about our habitat and to develop science and technology.”
Robin Collins

http://thesauros-store.blogspot.com/2010/03/coincidence-i-think-not.html
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7 comments:

  1. World of FactsApril 30, 2011 at 9:15 PM

    Can Collins reach that conclusion without pre-supposing the existence of an intelligent designer?

    Can you?

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  2. ThesaurosMay 1, 2011 at 7:53 AM

    Well, people start their journey toward God from several dozen different positions, no one of which would lead to a conversion on its own, but all of which becomes compelling for those called by God.

    And the evidence becomes something that creates cognitive dissonance for those who wish to discount the evidence for a Creator, for they must look away from or ignore this evidence.

    That`s what happened to me an every one I know. Not about discoverability, but that a Creator must exist because - well, you know the material and philosophical evidence that led to my conversion. It’s found in “Why I’m not an atheist.”

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  3. World of FactsMay 1, 2011 at 9:16 AM

    What I know is that because you cannot find explanations for certain things, you attribute them to God.

    You then add a pinch of personal experience, and yield a strong emotional belief in God, that you always had, but was just not thinking about before some random girl at a party told you some (not-so) wise words 30 years ago...

    Moreover, that comment shows that you don't believe people who don't believe. You simply refuse to believe that some looked at the same evidence, the same as you, WITHOUT any bias, and concluded that they are not sufficient evidence to believe in Creator-Jesus-God.

    Cognitive dissonance you say? Read your first paragraph, you plainly admit that NO starting point can lead to God by itself, but that ALL are good in the end. I am not aware of a single of my beliefs that work like that, NONE. Prove me wrong if you disagree...

    In other words, I don't think I've never seen you so clear about the fact that to believe you must believe, and nothing else. You don't really care about what all the evidence is because, once you believe, you just keep piling them up. It makes you feel good and that's the only confirmation you need. You changed so much since then, it must thus be all true; right? Nobody can change like that because of something false, right?

    It's hilarious that you then twist that around and say that it's non-believers like me who purposely reject some evidence... even claiming that they "wish to discount the evidence for a Creator, for they must look away from or ignore this evidence". That is a lie. Your posts of the "Why I'm not an atheist" kind were never accurately describing the way an atheist, at least in my case, think. You always fail at mind reading to explain beliefs, ALWAYS. Feel free to try again if you think I am wrong...

    If you change your mind and do have an objective UNIQUE starting point that I would agree with, and then move from to conclude that God exists, let me know! I would be interested to know what that starting point would be.

    Until then I'll just call that starting point "faith in Jesus", THE true starting point for... your faith in Jesus! And since I don't have beliefs based only on faith, I discard it until you provide good evidence.

    In summary... good job at exposing so clearly the true nature of your circular reasoning based on a pre-supposition that Jesus is God!

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  4. ThesaurosMay 1, 2011 at 11:32 AM

    Whatever -

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  5. World of FactsMay 1, 2011 at 11:41 AM

    Ya whatever, who cares about what's true anyway, why think, why read, why even try supporting a position when it just feels right...

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  6. ThesaurosMay 1, 2011 at 1:04 PM

    It’s pointless Hugo. Until God opens your eyes to see what the evidence means, you will never accept it for what it is. Even a whole mathematically precise universe will mean nothing to you re: the truth of its origins.

    It’ll just be, “Duh, I don’t know. I’m waiting for a material / natural answer and until that comes the best I can do is say, “I don’t know. That’s the noble thing to do you know! Reject a supra natural cause and then say, “We don’t know. In fact I'm willing to go to hell waiting for a material answer.”

    So whatever. I’m not waiting around for you Hugo. I’m off to a future, both here on earth and after this stage of existence that is good beyond anything I ever dreamed possible. You can play in your little mud puddle till your dying breath. I’m on a south pacific island and it’s glorious beyond all expectation. Like I said, Since Jesus came into my life 30 years ago, every year, EVERY SINGLE YEAR has been better than the year before and I see no reason for that to end - ever!

    So, whatever. I give you truth. You reject it.

    It should terrify you that God isn’t calling you. It doesn’t.

    Like a cow watching a train go by you just chew on the paltry fair this life has to offer and cling to the belief that this is all there is. I can’t help that. You're a dead man walking.

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  7. World of FactsMay 1, 2011 at 1:39 PM

    You are correct in a way, appeal to emotions have no effect on my beliefs, and since this is the only thing you can do, I don't accept your claims.

    What I do believe is this:
    Like I said, Since Jesus came into my life 30 years ago, every year, EVERY SINGLE YEAR has been better than the year before and I see no reason for that to end - ever!

    I have no problem at all to believe that.

    What's strange is that you then say...

    So, whatever. I give you truth. You reject it.

    NO! I believe the part that is demonstrably true, i.e., the fact that since Jesus came into your life, you changed.

    You fail at mind reading... again.

    However are very honest in my opinion; you simply do not grasp what I believe or not believe and you don't understand why. Plus you do admit that you believe because you believe, and that only the God you believe in could change something... only if I believe in him first. Eh I still have free will after all!

    Again, if you ever have some truth to share with me that I refuse to accept, let me know.

    Side note, "Even a whole mathematically precise universe will mean nothing to you re: the truth of its origins." means nothing. Support it and explain it. For now, all it means is that because you already believe in God, then it has to be the case. Just like people who thought it was reversing the order of things to believe that the Earth was not the center of the universe, you think that our universe is perfectly designed for us... when we simply evolved in it and were certainly, for sure, NOT designed.

    That is a belief I have, if you want to try to debunk something I really believe for a change...

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