Ginx the atheist made a comment a few days ago about what causes us to be “good” people. Much of what he said is true. Religion is not the only factor. Our upbringing / training does indeed play a big role.
Jesus spoke a great deal about being good, and the contrast between Jesus’ vision of good and a secular person’s vision of good could not be greater.
For a secular person, being good would look something like this. I’ll help those who need help, if I don’t have to go too far out of my road to do it. Like, I’d cross the street, maybe, if I wasn’t too busy. Or, the secular person would give away food or stuff to those in need, if s/he had anything extra to give away. ‘I’ll be good where it makes sense to be good.’
There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact it’s good. It’s certainly better than not doing anything.
So what’s the contrast between the good of secular people and that of Jesus and His followers?
Jesus said, “People will know you are My disciple (follower, student) if you love others as I have loved you.”
How does Jesus love us? He gave Himself. Not some of Himself. Not the extra. Not the left overs. He gave all of Himself. Think about that! The Creator of the universe stepped down from His throne and came to earth knowing in advance that we would do our absolute worst to Him so that we would not have His worst happen to us. And then He said, “Follow Me, be like Me, do what I did in My relationship with others.”
Feeling particularly generous one day, Jesus’ follower, Peter asked Jesus, “How many times should I forgive someone who keeps doing wrong to me. Seven times?” That’s how secular people think. At least those who want to be “good” think that way. Knowing that lots of people wouldn’t forgive at all, they think, ‘I’ll really overdo it and forgive seven times.’ Jesus says to Peter, “Not seven times but every time.” That’s what Jesus does in His relationship with those who have accepted His offer of forgiveness. His forgiveness is unending.
Jesus said, “Even secular people love those who love them back.” Jesus on the other hand took the lowest position in that society, that of a gentile slave and washed the feet of the man who He knew would betray Him to death. Then He said, “This is the example that I have left for you to follow.” Looking down from the cross onto those who were crucifying Him, Jesus prayed, “Father, forgive them. They don’t even know what they’re doing.”
In Jesus’ day, people were required to do what Roman soldiers told them to do. If a Roman soldier told a civilian to carry his gear for one kilometre, a secular person would feel pretty good about doing that without complaining. Jesus said, “If a soldier tells you to carry his gear for one kilometre, take it two. If someone asked for your shirt, give him your coat and your shirt.”
Jesus said, “Love your enemies. Do good to those who persecute you. Give to those who hate you.” The main fear that keeps secular people from doing this is, “I’m no doormat. No body is going to walk on me.” Jesus says, “Who cares if they walk on you? Let them jump on you.” Paul says, “Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated?”
Can you begin to see how far Jesus is from the secular mind-set? Don’t just help those who need help when it’s convenient to help them. Help those who need help, convenient or not AND even if they will ridicule and despise you for your efforts.
What did Jesus mean by “love”? The love that Jesus is talking about is the willed, volitional, desire to do good to another - even to the person who is out to destroy you.
Love one another – John 13:34
Be devoted to one another – Romans 12:10
Rejoice with one another and weep with one another – Romans 12:15
Don't judge one another - Romans 14:13
Accept one another - Romans 15:7
Don't ignore one another – Romans 16:16
Don't be arrogant on behalf of one another - 1 Corinthians 4:6
Be courteous toward one another - 1 Corinthians 11:33
Care for one another – 1 Corinthians 12:25
Comfort one another - 2 Corinthians 1:4
Serve one another - Galatians 5:13
Carry one another's heavy load - Galatians 6:2
Be patient and gentle with one another - Ephesians 4:2
Forgive one another - Ephesians 4:32
Submit to one another - Ephesians 5:21
Forgive one another - Colossians 3:13
Teach and admonish one another - Colossians 3:16
Be kind and tender-hearted toward one another - Ephesians 4:32
Be humble toward one another - 1 Peter 5:5
Be hospitable toward one another - 1 Peter 4:9
Serve one another - 1 Peter 4:10
Encourage one another 1 Thessalonians 5:11
Encourage one another to love and to good deeds - Hebrews 10:24
Don't tell lies about one another – James 4:11
Don't grumble against one another – James 5:9
Confess your sins to one another – James 5:16
Pray for one another – James 5:16
Enjoy and open and honest life with one another - 1 John 1:7
. Jesus’ kind of love is patient and kind.
Does that describe how you treat the difficult person in your life? Does it describe how you speak to that person? It does describe how Jesus interacts with you.
. Jesus’ love does not dishonour others, it is not selfish, it is not easily angered, in fact Jesus’ love refuses to keep a record of the wrong things that this difficult person has done.
Does that describe how you think regarding the most hurtful person in your life? I've encountered more than a few people who've kept a literal written record of the wrongs that someone has done to them.
. Jesus’ love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Jesus’ love never fails. 1st Corinthians 13:1-8.
The love that Jesus wants to impart to us is relentless, tenacious and even aggressive in nature. This love never backs down. The love that God places within followers of Jesus will not allow another person’s improper actions to deflect us from our goal, from our destiny to become people who are able treat with love those who seem bent on destroying us, to do good to those who despise us, to pray for those who persecute and betray us and who seem to ignore our deepest needs.
Again, don’t hear me saying that a secular person doing good to those who will do good back isn’t admirable. Lots of people don’t even do that much. But if you really want to live. If you really want to breath the rarified air of life as it was meant to be lived, consider following Jesus. Consider His offer of salvation. If you want to do something that will literally change the world for the better, ditch the third-rate secular life and sign on with your Creator. It’s better than any words I could use to describe it.
True change in our character begins when we seriously meditate on the cost of Jesus dying for us, even while we were still His enemy. Knowing what Jesus has done for me, despite how I continue to treat Him poorly and sometimes with complete disregard should inspire me to allow Him to change me into someone who is less angry, less selfish, less demanding, less controlling etc. Because of my sin, because of my anger, because of my refusal to love others as God has loved me, Jesus had to die for me. If He hadn't, well, in my Bible, next to Romans chapter 9:22-24, I have written in the margin, “It could have been me.” Jesus death, His shed blood for my sake was my only means of having my broken relationship with Creator God restored. Knowing this should change the fundamental orientation of my heart.
In Jesus, my corrupted self-love is forgiven.
How can I then turn around and hold someone else to account for h/her corrupt self-love?
In Jesus, my foolish self-esteem was transformed into Christ-esteem.
How then can I withhold forgiveness from those who push themselves to the head of the line?
If Jesus refuses to punish me for my anger, how can I punish anyone else for their lack of love / respect?
If Jesus refuses to condemn me, how can I then condemn my spouse, or in-laws, or co-workers, or anyone else?
If Jesus is generous with me, how can I not be generous with others?
If Jesus is faithful to me (“I will never leave you or give up on you”), how can I justify walking away from any other difficult relationship?
This, Bret, is the difference it makes to be a friend of God; to be in an intimate, healed and forgiven relationship with my Lord, my Saviour, my King, my Master. This is the difference it makes from believing that I am an accident of nature who needs to take care of number one.
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That's one interpretation. The one I observe is a bunch of Christians acting un-Christlike (not necessarily you, since I don't know you enough to make such a claim), convincing themselves that they are saved by faith alone, feeling full of themselves because they're "forgiven" by a being that neither exists nor matters, and then going about their day acting however they would have acted regardless of their faith. The people who actually live the way you have described are so few that they stand out, and plenty who live that way are non-Christian (which includes secular individuals, but also people of other faiths).
ReplyDeleteI don't need Jesus or God for me to go the extra mile, and I feel that doing it for other people is a more worthy cause than doing it for my own eternal benefit. But that's just my interpretation.
“. . . acting un-Christlike (not necessarily you, since I don't know you enough to make such a claim)”
ReplyDeleteNo matter how good I am, if you knew me it’s my un-Christlike behaviour that you’d notice and add to your reasons for rejecting Jesus. But then, Jesus didn’t ask you to follow me - did He? Nor did He say that you needed me in order to have your sins forgiven.
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“. . . feeling full of themselves because they're "forgiven”"
Anyone who feels full of themselves because they’re forgiven most certainly does NOT understand the concept of forgiveness as Jesus and Christian doctrine teaches.
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“ . . . then going about their day acting however they would have acted regardless of their faith.”
It’s true that those who identify as Christian yet take their faith lightly are certainly the easiest to identify and obsess on when you want to justify rejecting Jesus.
I'm curious. How do you rationalise saying that everyone who calls h/herself a Christian must therefore be one, when Jesus says that you will know who is and who is not a Christian by that person’s PATTERN of behaviour, or lifestyle?
. And would you do the same for someone who says, “I’m a Democrat,” but votes Republican, spouts Republican ideology, attends Republican meetings and so on?
. Or would you do the same for someone who says, “I’m a Vegan,” but eats cheese burgers once or twice a week, enjoys fish and steak and drinks three glasses of milk a day?
. Or someone who says, "I'm a hard core Phillies fan," but wears the opposition's colours, and cheers when the Phillies commit and error or lose a game.
. Or what about someone who says, “I'm a follower of Jesus, but I refuse to do what He says I should do.”
Why do you still use someone like that as an example of what Christians are like?
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"The people who actually live the way you have described are so few that they stand out, and plenty who live that way are non-Christian (which includes secular individuals, but also people of other faiths)."
Well, that’s not been my experience. I know many dozens of Christians whose love for others is a working definition of sacrificial (unlike the atheist quotes below). They don't do this for recognition or reward. They obey Jesus as His servant and because His love that dwells within them compels them to treat others with respect, decency and compassion. They really do love their enemies. My experience of secular “good” people is found in these two recent quotes from an atheist blogger that you might even know.
. “I will help out others, and will go a “reasonable ” amount out of my way to do so”
. “If I have more than I need I will share it freely."
It’s good that she is willing to do this. It’s certainly better than nothing, but really, as you say, plenty of secular people can pull that off.
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“I don't need Jesus or God for me to go the extra mile, and I feel that doing it for other people is a more worthy cause than doing it for my own eternal benefit.”
Well, again, a Christian is not doing it for h/her eternal benefit. A Roman Catholic must and so must any adherent of every other man-made religion. But working for one's salvation has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Since you’ve been raised Catholic there is probably nothing I can say to help you see that salvation is not based on doing good things or going to Church or praying enough times or any other ritual or behaviour. Salvation as Jesus and the rest of the New Testament writers understood and taught comes solely through God’s grace, totally and completely. Nobody can ever be good enough to be good enough for heaven. Being good is important for the well-being of the world. And if that’s your goal in life then thank you. The world needs more people like you.
Being good is important for the well-being of the world. And if that’s your goal in life then thank you. The world needs more people like you.
ReplyDeleteWell said!
That's why we don't need religion though... at best it tells us to do just that, exactly like secular values that yield the same message, but at worst, some religions destroy the world.
As I often say, if believing in God makes someone cat better and care for the world more, great, but just concluding that the belief is accurate is still wrong.
No matter how good I am, if you knew me it’s my un-Christlike behaviour that you’d notice and add to your reasons for rejecting Jesus. But then, Jesus didn’t ask you to follow me - did He? Nor did He say that you needed me in order to have your sins forgiven.
ReplyDeleteI honestly don't let the actions of any person determine whether I find a book to be correct. What I have a problem with is any suggestion that Christianity somehow imbues anyone with upstanding moral fiber (what is moral fiber anyway... does it keep you ethically regular, and can you only get it from eating a good person?).
If you are not suggesting Christianity makes someone a better person, I just wonder why there is such length to the arguments presented in this post regarding how only through Jesus can someone live for others. It's not just offensive to atheists to suggest this, it's offensive to anyone of any non-Christian religion who puts in the effort to be an amazing person.
That is ultimately what I find so disgusting about Jesus; it doesn't matter how "good" you are, because we're supposedly all horrible enough to not deserve heaven. So then where's the motivation for Christians to be better? Maybe this is why they are, in fact, not better people, because Christians are told they can't get into heaven with good deeds. Maybe that would be a lie worth telling, even if it were not true, that you must be a good person to get into heaven.
I'm curious. How do you rationalise saying that everyone who calls h/herself a Christian must therefore be one, when Jesus says that you will know who is and who is not a Christian by that person’s PATTERN of behaviour, or lifestyle?
I find it rather ratonal to accept that someone is a Christian if they acept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. It is a strange paradox to suggest faith saves, that we are all sinners unworthy of heaven... but that some "Christians" are not actually Christians because of what they do.
This is ultimately hypocritical. Either your actions are important in Christianity, or they are not. If they are, I have far more respect for the religion (I personally believe actions are important, from my reading of the New Testament). However, the popularity of Calvinism has really placed within the minds o fmany Christians the idea that faith alone saves, but from my understanding, faith without works is dead. [This is to say, works sustain faith, by which I take to mean that one who has truly accepted the teachings of Jesus will find it impossible to continue sinning as they did before doing so, with the fact that those who are non-Christians, but good deed works, will still fall short of heaven.]
Also, while I do appreciate you taking into account my personal history, I have surpassed my Catholic upbringing a long time ago. At 27 years old, I have been an atheist studying religion longer than I was a Catholic studying Catholicism. I have read the Bible multiple times in many translations (how un-Catholic, right?). My opinions have radically shifted away from what I'm sure you are capable of seeing as a very distorted view of Christianity which is pushed by the Catholic church.
Think about it, though. My view of good works has less to do with my Catholic upbringing than in my materialist view of the universe. Since I don't believe in divine justice, I see it as up to us human beings to make things right, because there is no afterlife where everything gets sorted out in my worldview. I feel compelled to do good now, while I can, for whom I can, because if I don't, I am often fairly certain that no one ever will.
I don't live under the misguided opinion that I can live a good life, die, end up before God and then reason with him that I lived well enough to deserve heaven. I just have full confidence that the Bible is lying or mistaken.