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Thursday, July 14, 2011

If Creator God does not exist, we’re nothing but broken chemical machines with absolutely no hope of repairing ourselves.
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11 comments:

  1. World of FactsJuly 14, 2011 at 8:20 AM

    Can I have fun with this quote?

    1) Rebuke using Islam

    If we use the same logic as the quote of the post, we can say this (comes from a Muslim website):

    'If Allah does not exist then humans should be able to change the word of Allah and the Torah (Taurat) and the Gospel (Injil) and the Quran should be fundamentally different because humans have had 3000 years to change the word of Allah if they had that power.'

    So should we conclude that Allah exists? That's what they claim...

    2) Rebuke using disbelief as a basis

    Because of what I see around the world right now, I believe that Creator God does not exist. The world makes complete sense without invoking God, or any gods.

    Some people, like you Rod, changed drastically because of their belief in God. Therefore, within that framework, we can conclude that people are able "repair" themselves. They are able to change when they shift their focus, life objectives, morality, etc...

    Under that framework, you just confirmed that God does not exist, or at least that he does not have to.

    3) Rebuke exposing ignorance and/or lack of imagination

    Because you cannot imagine a world without Creator God, the world we live in has to be a world with God.

    This creates a paradox where there is no way that we can differentiate between a world with God or without God. The two are essentially the same and you have never presented any way to falsify the claim 'Creator God exists'.

    Creator God becomes meaningless, impossible to define and his existence assumed rather than proved. Existence becomes a meaningless term and anything goes.

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  2. ThesaurosJuly 14, 2011 at 12:24 PM

    I can see that you did indeed have fun with this. Good on you. The fact is, human nature is not repaired, not by me, not by anyone, not this side of eternity. Human nature is one of the most stable "elements" in the universe, no less and no more barbaric today than it was the day historical records began, no less and no more able to love the difficult to love that it was the day we walked out into the grasslands.

    To answer the question from yesterday . . .

    I simply think you're wrong about how the Bible came to be, about it's reliability and about contradictions which, time after time after time turn out to be nothing but misunderstanding on our part.

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  3. World of FactsJuly 14, 2011 at 2:35 PM

    The fact is...

    I would like to know... why do you render the word 'fact' so meaningless?

    You cannot possibly be arrogant enough to pretend that it is a 'fact' that "human nature is not repaired, not by me, not by anyone, not this side of eternity" ?

    I mean... you use the word 'eternity'... How can anything involving 'eternity' be a fact?

    Perhaps I am being picky and you just mean that you 'think' it is the case, that for you it's as if it was a fact... please correct me.

    However, I want to insist that it is important to agree on the meaning of words when having discussions, especially online. After what, 2 years now, of talking to you here and there on your blog, I realize more and more how it is the biggest issue.

    The words we use often don't mean the same. In person, it would be so quick to clarify or stop you, or myself, in the middle of a sentence to ask what the implied meaning is. Online it's another story...

    Human nature is one of the most stable "elements" in the universe, no less and no more barbaric today than it was the day historical records began, no less and no more able to love the difficult to love that it was the day we walked out into the grasslands.

    Sorry but this is just silly... well, actually since you don't believe that humans evolve, I guess it makes sense! Never mind!

    But still, even within recent human history, let's say 4,000 years. Don't you think that in the general sense we are less barbaric? There is more equality, less slavery, less infanticide, etc...

    However, I also AGREE with you. Humans always have, and will always hurt each other and themselves. The nicest person will commit bad things sometimes and there will always be terrible people who are willing to do anything they can to achieve what they want. It sucks, but that's the way it is.

    The difference between you and I though is that I have a very positive view of it, and I am very optimistic, while you, well, I won't put words in your mouth...

    (got to come back later for the Bible part :))

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  4. ThesaurosJuly 14, 2011 at 8:08 PM

    It is a "fact" that human nature has not changed one iota over 4,000, 10,000, pick any amount of time. Who we are today is who we've always been. Our tools have changed, our clothes have changed but our stance in relations to others is exactly the same.

    The only reason we seem to be more civalised in the West is our wealth. Let shortages of necessities or let inflation put necessities out of reach of the majority and you'll see what we're really made of.

    I've seen however, just two days ago, an amusing exchange on some blog where atheists were seriously entertaining the suggestion that atheists were more evolved than religious people. Which simply proves that they are exactly the same as every human who has ever existed; exactly the same as every human has looked for reasons why "I'm better than you are." My skin colour, my school, my religious beliefs, my race, my level of education, my political affiliation, my world-view etc. etc.

    Neither atheists nor anyone else has changed one speck.

    As for your comment on eternity, most atheists, in the face of both scientific and philosophical evidence to the contrary suggest and even believe that matter has existed for eternity.

    It's a fact that either the cause of matter is eternal or that matter itself is eternal.

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  5. ThesaurosJuly 15, 2011 at 6:59 AM

    Hugo, an example came to mind.

    I was able to retire when I was 51. Our oldest two kids were on their own. Our house and vehicles were paid for. For several years we went south in the winters, bought what we wanted (within reason) did what we wanted.

    You’ve maybe seen the old ads on tv about “Freedom 55"? Well, we had that at 51. And then our life changed. A little boy needed a home. Both of us hated the idea. My wife less than me but neither of us wanted to change our lifestyle. Like Joel Osteen I felt that God had blessed us so who was I to argue.

    Besides, we’d already done our share. We’d adopted to special needs kids and got them off on their own. That’s more than most people.

    But “God kept pushing” and I kept resisting. I HATED the idea. I was furious that I would have to give up “the good life.” Kids are a lot of work. Special needs kids times ten.

    And one day I was sitting out in the back yard just seething over this issue. My wife was in the house stewing in her own way about the issue. And I said to God, “Lord my attitude stinks. There is no way that I can raise a child while hating his intrusion into my life. If you want me to do this then it’s going to have to be Your doing because I can’t. I won’t!”

    Hugo, in the blink of an eye - LESS than the blink of an eye my attitude did a complete flip. It was like an out of body experience. I watched myself sit up, brighten up, cheer up. I got excited about having this little kid in our home. I WANTED to have this child in our home. I rushed in to tell Wendy what had happened and she was looking the same as me. Before I could say anything, she said with a smile, “Let’s do this.”

    This is not an isolated incident in the changes that have been brought about in my life but it’s the most dramatic.

    God is real. He lives within me. He changes people. Since then we've adopte this boys sister plus three others and as difficult as it is, my life is immeasurably better because of them. "Thank you Lord!"

    Look at you Hugo. You made plans to not speak to me in a way that you wouldn’t speak to anyone in “real life” and within four or five replies you were already laughing and mocking. My suggestion? Try harder. Really put some effort into becoming a man of integrity - not just this one area but in all areas. You’ll see.

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  6. World of FactsJuly 15, 2011 at 8:11 AM

    Look at you Hugo. You made plans to not speak to me in a way that you wouldn’t speak to anyone in “real life” and within four or five replies you were already laughing and mocking.

    If that's what I did I apologize.

    However, I don't recall doing such thing... I have been talking to you exactly the same I would with anybody I encounter. The tone is hard to judge with text.

    Also, perhaps I mocked some ideas, or exposed in plain sight some absurdities? I think everybody deserve respect, every single human being, but I don't think ideas, no matter how important they are for them, deserve such respect. And frankly, you have a few beliefs and expose certain ideas that deserve absolutely no respect. The first and most obvious one that comes to mind is the fact that you think you agree with God 'all the time', or like 99% of the time, something like this (I don't want to put words in your mouth).

    My suggestion? Try harder. Really put some effort into becoming a man of integrity - not just this one area but in all areas. You’ll see.

    I agree! It is important. Here's a problem though. To be a man of integrity means, among other things, not to lie. When it comes to religion, I cannot possibly ever become a Christian without lying to myself and others. The knowledge I have about the world we live in conflicts too much. The objective reality we live in does not fit with the idea of your Creator God.

    At the same time however, don't get me wrong. It does not mean that I am lying when I say that I would be converted if I get to see evidence for God. That is still true. What is perhaps half-true though is when I said that there could be evidence for Creator God. I don't think there is... The reason is simple. By all the definitions i have ever heard, Creator God cannot exist, or at best, cannot be proven to exist. It's a matter of faith. It always boil down to faith.

    To me, having faith would be lying. It is a dishonest way to go through life. I cannot possibly believe something EXISTS without being convinced that it EXISTS. Existence is the key here. Again, to be precise, I can have faith in a bunch of things. The problem is that it does not mean the same. Faith, in the context of God, literally means believe without evidence.

    You cannot prove that your God EXISTS, yet you pretend to talk to Him because you have faith He EXISTS. You can have faith that He exists, and that's what makes you do all these things. You are not dishonest, but you just don't really care whether God really EXISTS or not, you just assume He does, and have many stories that fit with this idea.

    Ok, enough talking... because, again, if I am to be honest, I am forced to admit that I know you won't care one bit about everything I write!

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  7. World of FactsJuly 15, 2011 at 9:23 AM

    Well, got to wait after stupid things at work so I am taking another break to write here.....
    I will go back up more in the comments:

    It is a "fact" that human nature has not changed one iota over 4,000, 10,000, pick any amount of time...

    You used quotes around the word fact but I have the feeling that it was not to say that it's not really a fact, you really present what is right after as being a fact... when it is not!

    Perhaps we don't have the same definition of what human nature is, but it is absurd to think that we have not changed and that...
    The only reason we seem to be more civalised in the West is our wealth.
    This idea makes no sense. You simplify such a complex situation. I understand exactly what you mean though, don't pretend it's because I am dumb. The problem is that you simplify the fact that we still do bad things with the idea that human nature as a whole as not changed. It is such a sad way to perceive society as a whole.

    Hum, but again, since you have such a negative view of the world we live in, I guess barbarian people who don't know how to read and take foreigners as slaves is the same as a friendly atheist who just tries to bring as much happiness around him as he can? Right? Let me exaggerate a bit... for you, both deserve eternal punishment in Hell, the worst place we can think of, because they refuse to follow the advice of the One True God that you believe exists now, always existed, and will always exist. It sounds funny really, but it's also super depressing to think that this caricature of what you believe is close to the truth.

    Let shortages of necessities or let inflation put necessities out of reach of the majority and you'll see what we're really made of.

    Such a pessimistic view again! Look at what happened to Japan. They are one of the most Godless society. Did they start raping and killing each other for resources after the quake and tsunami? No! It was super calm in the context and they just tried to do the best they could. It was not perfect, I am sure there was pillage, but it was not chaos. Actually I think it was better than the very "Christian" New Orleans... but I don't think it's related to religion anyway, that's the point.

    Of course there are cases where people become crazy and act like animals when facing tough times, but this still has nothing to do with religion anyway. So I don't get what your point is. Believing in Jesus would not change anything regarding that. Yes, you, because you are almost perfect and always agree with God would act in the most humane way possible. You would never do anything bad in such situation; you would follow what your conscience tells you. The point is that it has nothing to do with God. You would just do what's good for you and others, period.

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  8. World of FactsJuly 15, 2011 at 9:24 AM

    I've seen however, just two days ago, an amusing exchange on some blog where atheists were seriously entertaining the suggestion that atheists were more evolved than religious people.

    That's stupid of them. I do think that educated and more refine people are more evolve in a way though. There are very religious people in that category however so these atheists are missing the big picture.

    Which simply proves that they are exactly the same as every human who has ever existed; xactly the same as every human has looked for reasons why "I'm better than you are." My skin colour, my school, my religious beliefs, my race, my level of education, my political affiliation, my world-view etc. etc.

    Now you are the one who pushes too far though. I cannot talk for these Atheists, but it's clear that they should have left religious beliefs aside and explain what they considered to be 'more evolved'. It might mean that they consider people who know how the world works to be more evolve, or people who care about the fate of human kind, or people who think about stopping wars, or people who want to care for ALL children of the world, or people who want to make sure we use resources in a sustainable way, or people who want to promote scientific advancement in an ethical way, or people who reject dogmas and questions pre-conceived ideas, etc... etc... etc... It's sad that they mentioned atheists because it means nothing. I am much more concerned with what people believe and why. For example, you can believe in God and not reject anything explained by modern science, and I would have no problem with that. That's actually why I have a problem with you Rod, because you reject science.

    As for your comment on eternity, most atheists, in the face of both scientific and philosophical evidence to the contrary suggest and even believe that matter has existed for eternity.

    It's a fact that either the cause of matter is eternal or that matter itself is eternal.

    Your views on eternity with respect to matter are wrong because you don't understand the mathematics behind it. The fact that you put ' scientific and philosophical evidence' in the same sentence, when dealing with eternity, confirms what I just wrote. But again, I told you that before, and you just don't care... you don't care that a singularity is NOT what you want it to be. You don't care that scientists don't' say what you think they say, you don't care that 'the cause of matter is eternal or that matter itself is eternal' is NOT a valid statement. You make mistakes on both a philosophical and scientific level, but you just don't care, because even if you were to be proven wrong, you would still have your emotional reasons to believe in God. Just like William Lane Craig who once said he would still be a Christian even if there were good reasons to believe Jesus never existed, you would still be a Christian if all the reasons you had to believe were to vanish, because you would always have your personal experiences to back yourself up.

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  9. World of FactsJuly 15, 2011 at 9:24 AM

    On a slightly different note, if you want to do philosophy, if you really want to go that that road which I have always avoided with you, try to consider this simple mental experiment:

    So, the idea is that I first start by stating that I believe there is such a thing as an objective reality. This can be simplified by 'Existence exists' where existence is a collective noun encompassing all that exists. It is thus axiomatic in this Objectivism system.

    For something to be objective in reality, it has to be independent of any mind. This is self-evident in the system, but just to clarify, it simply means that if something depends on a mind, it cannot be objective as it is subject to change to the will of the, or the multiple, mind that it depends on.

    Thus, the objective reality that we can live on, which exists independently of our mind, cannot depend on another mind as it would make it non-objective, refuting the starting point of the philosophy. Hence, the primacy of consciousness does not make sense if we start by assuming that an objective reality exists.

    In order for God to be eternal and the First Cause of everything that exists, God violates the first axiom of the system: objective reality cannot exist.

    Do you believe we live in an objective reality or not? Is everything around us potentially going to change to the will of God any second from now? If yes, then the scientific method is pointless and all the fancy 'fine tuning-argument' don't make any sense as our experiments are irrelevant. If we do live in an objective reality, how can you show that God exists in this reality AND is bound to that reality if He is supposed to be the Creator of that reality?

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  10. ThesaurosJuly 15, 2011 at 1:19 PM

    Yes, you, because you are almost perfect and always agree with God would act in the most humane way possible. You would never do anything bad in such situation; you would follow what your conscience tells you.

    Is that what you think I mean by agreeing with God? That I obey Him on every point? That I'm a good person? Not at all. I agree with Him that adultery begins with lust and that murder begins with anger but that doesn't mean that I never lust or get angry. I agree with Him that we should treat all people with respect but that doesn't mean that I treat everyone with respect. The very fact that I agree with my Creator regarding what is right and wrong is the reason I realised I needed forgiveness. I was wrong and often still am wrong on nearly every point.

    You on the other hand do not agree with Him on right and wrong. Nor do you believe that any ultimate consequences will follow your disagreement. Therefore you don't see the urgency of forgiveness.

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  11. World of FactsJuly 15, 2011 at 2:13 PM

    Is that what you think I mean by agreeing with God? That I obey Him on every point? That I'm a good person? Not at all.

    No, no, and yes.

    I did not mean that you act perfectly; I admit that I mischaracterized what agreeing with God really means since you had admitted yourself in the past to not be perfect and not obey Him on every point.

    Wait, did I just correct myself? Again?

    Concerning being a good person, of course you are! You take care of others, devote your life to kids who really need help and try to follow what your God tells you to do as much as you can. Since you consider that God to be a perfect moral giver, then you essentially try to be as good a person as possible, and appear to succeed quite well.

    So, what's the problem right? It comes right after; you basically confirmed my point right there:

    I agree with Him that...

    No, you don't agree with Him, you just assert your own opinion!

    Just say... "I think that..." That would be honesty. There are millions of people through ages who have claimed that they agree with God and do what they do because God said so. THAT is what I have a problem with; that is what I find dangerous, terrible and inacceptable. Yes the outcome is great in your case, but you could do the exact same things without invoking your God. You could have the exact same opinions without invoking your God if you wanted to. It's your choice, whether you pretend it is or not.

    You on the other hand do not agree with Him on right and wrong. Nor do you believe that any ultimate consequences will follow your disagreement. Therefore you don't see the urgency of forgiveness.

    Actually, you are completely wrong about that. I cannot agree or disagree on what is wrong with God, I don't believe God exists. How can you forget that?

    Obviously, I know what you mean, that I disagree with what PEOPLE say God thinks. But I don't have any reliable way to know what God, the real God, thinks. The Bible requires so much interpretations that it's a joke to pretend we can get anything from that. Take it too literally and you will stone people for bad behaviour, take it to the other extreme as a long metaphor and you end up doing what I do... use your conscience.

    You are also wrong about consequences. I am aware of the consequences and I keep telling myself that I should do this or that better, that I should be more this or that, etc... you have no idea how conscious I am of what good or bad things I do, and what I should do. Seriously, I don't know if you meant it as an insult but it is. What we disagree on is what the consequences really are.

    Once again, I write too much already... and you addressed only like 10% of what I wrote before so perhaps you'll come back with more comments in order to correct some of the things I said.... surely you think what I wrote is nonsense so you should point out why...

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