“Look, I want to see things your way, but I don't think there's enough room up your ass for both of our heads.”
I absolutely despise the term LOL. And I’ve only used it once before, but I’ve got to tell you, this is worth the second time. Thanks for the laugh. Hmm, I'm having a little deja vous all over again feeling. Have you said that to me once before?
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“Sorry, but it's very tedious to be told what experts say by someone who clearly doesn't know.”
You mean I have to be an expert to quote experts? That’s seems odd but, whatever. Aren’t you interested in what experts have to say? Especially when they're atheists? Not even then?
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“You make broad, sweeping errors, like the idea that the big bang is necessarily the first thing to ever happened,”
That’s not true Bret. We don't have any proof for any universe other than our own. Now you may be different than Hugo but atheists are famous for saying that they only believe what can be proven so I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that you might be one of those. At any rate, our “Big Bang” may be the last of a bzillion trillion quadrillion blah, blah, blah, (although science shows that is not possible) but at some point there was a first Big Bang, a first coming into being of matter / energy and we know that there was a first Big Bang because the material infinite does not and cannot exist. This is not something that I've dreamed up. This is a scientific fact.
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“. . . even that you have the authority to arbitrarily name that which has and will always exist "God,"
Bret, I said you can call it whatever you want but it winds up being The Greatest Conceivable Being or what we call God.
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“insisting we then use an obsolete set of desert myths as your basis for understanding this first cause - why go on?”
You need to go on because you are basing you eternity on Atheist Origin Of The Universe Mythologies.
Oscillating universe -
Baby universes -
Multi verses -
The Cyclic Ekpyrotic Scenario -
The Chaotic Inflationary universe -
Brane-cosmology -
Inflationary multi-verse -
Bubble universes floating in a sea of false vacuum -
The many worlds hypothesis -
The black hole hypothesis -
Quantum gravity models -
Vacuum fluctuation models -
Imaginary time and imaginary space -
... I could go on, but why bother? Not a single one of these are workable. All of these are dreamed up in an attempt to avoid the reality that the universe had a beginning. It’s not my fault that the science of origins is coherent to what the Bible states. It’s just a coincidence but one worth paying attention to.
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“Whatever BEGINS to exist has a cause - ...and EVERYTHING began to exist at some point right? ... except God? Nice try!”
No, everything material began to exist at some point in time. Look, if you believe that:
. An infinite regress of cause is possible - just say so
. The material infinite exists - just say so
. That matter can bring itself and space and time into existence - just say so
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“ But we don't know this.”
Hugo - Does the material infinite exist?
No?
If we know that the material infinite does not exist - and we do know that - then we also know that at one point that matter / energy nor the laws of physics nor anything for these laws to act upon did not exist.
I know that you desperately want there to be another option but I can't help you.
You'll just have to accept reality and it's better to accept reality now than:
"On that day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is King of kings, and Lord of lords and Creator of everything that is seen and unseen."
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"Hugo - Does the material infinite exist?"
ReplyDeleteNo because it's infinite.
Is God infinite?
God isn't infinite, infinite is God. That isn't true, but it sounds deep if you huff paint before reading it.
ReplyDeleteOh, also, Thesauros, you didn't really address why you connect this abstract concept of a first cause with the mythology of the Bible. You just tried to throw a bunch of "atheist" ideas at me, like I asked for a list of "atheist creation myths" (actually, these are proposed scientific theories, and have nothing to do with atheism, and theories are inherently assumed to be false until proven true).
ReplyDeleteGod isn't infinite, infinite is God. That isn't true, but it sounds deep if you huff paint before reading it.
ReplyDeleteI don't really get the difference since it still defines God using only abstract/conceptual terms, i.e. equating God to something that is conceptual by definition.
... but I did not huff paint before so perhaps I am missing something ;)
“Oh, also, Thesauros, you didn't really address why you connect this abstract concept of a first cause with the mythology of the Bible.”
ReplyDelete“In the beginning God . . .
The Bible does not make a case / proof for the existence of a Creator - it assumes this to be the case.
“In the beginning God created the universe”
Genesis 1:1
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“these are proposed scientific theories, and have nothing to do with atheism,”
They are directly driven by atheism for if the material universe has a beginning from nothing, then it requires a supra natural Cause which renders atheism wrong. That's why as soon as one mythology is proven unworkable, another is quickly invented. All in an attempt to ignore the evidence and rule out God as cause.
If God is outside of time, it should read, "Before the beginning... before there was a before..." or something like that. Plus, He's not the only thing, there's also water. Where was God that He was just floating over some water?
ReplyDeletePlus, I must have missed the verse where they're like "and then a huge explosion created septillions of stars and planets, one of which was Earth."
"Before the beginning..."
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no. Hugo won't allow that kind of talk. You know what "before" means. And I know what "before" means. But Hugo says "Before" has no meaning when talking about - well - before the universe came into being.
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Plus, I must have missed the verse where they're like "and then a huge explosion created septillions of stars and planets, one of which was Earth."
You've missed a lot more than that :-)
"Before the beginning..."
ReplyDeleteNo, no, no. Hugo won't allow that kind of talk. You know what "before" means. And I know what "before" means. But Hugo says "Before" has no meaning when talking about - well - before the universe came into being.
Troll
To be called a Troll sounds nasty, but I know, because you said so, that you're smiling and happy all the time - even when telling people to "Shut the fuck up" - because you don't need God to be a nice person and because - well - because in atheist-world it's so great to just be alive.
ReplyDeleteTo be called a Troll sounds nasty, but I know, because you said so, that you're smiling and happy all the time - even when telling people to "Shut the fuck up" - because you don't need God to be a nice person and because - well - because in atheist-world it's so great to just be alive.
ReplyDeleteNo actually, calling you a troll in that context is not nasty at all since it has nothing to do with 'nasty' troll.
I told you what I meant by 'troll'; go read.
That comment you just posted is also trolling by the way :)