Response to Hugo, Bret and GTA

“If you are not suggesting Christianity makes someone a better person, I just wonder why there is such length to the arguments presented in this post regarding how only through Jesus can someone live for others.”

Oh, I DO believe that Jesus makes someone a better person than s/he was before. Just not necessarily better than someone else. I think I told you about encountering someone from my highschool days and when I told her what I was doing for a living you screeched, “You! But you were the worst one!”

And I don’t mean the religion of Christianity as it is currently practised makes you a better person: praying, going to Church, reading the Bible, doing good deeds etc. I mean, the person of Jesus the Christ, and His indwelling Spirit changes a person for the better. I’m a bzillion times better today than my former self and every year marks new and better changes. But I may not be a better person than you.

If you look in Romans 8:28,29 you’ll see that the main good, the bottom line good that God brings out of all situations if that we become more like Jesus. That is the reason for us being on this planet; to become like Jesus. Because of Jesus, and all because of Jesus I truly am a new creation and this is the case for every genuine born again believer. We’ve been “born again.” We’ve been given another chance, a new beginning, a starting over. I spend so much time writing about it because those of us who have been called by God to be His servants are NOT able to be good people without Jesus. That’s led to the problems that you’ve identified. Humans frequently make the mistake of thinking, ‘The way my life is, is the way everyone’s life is.’ That’s why Christians have thought and taught that atheists must be grossly sinful people. We think you guys must be just like us. In a way you are.

Atheists mock Christians saying, “If you’d be out raping and pillaging without Jesus, then I’m glad you got saved.” And it’s said as though the Christian is a fool for thinking that they need God to be a good person. Why? Because the atheist is doing the same - “I can be good therefore everyone can be good.” Not true! Saint Francis noted, “God picks the weakest, the smallest, the meanest of people on the face of the earth.”

To me, the proof of changed lives is the FACT that while we’re all born in rebellion against God, it is those who are born again who far and away - not exclusively - but far and away lead the pack - by a long, long way - in sacrificing themselves to do charity work around the world - including the place where you live. It took until the 20th century for atheists to discover, “Hey, being good to other people is almost like being good to myself.”

An even bigger mistake though, is putting the emphasis on “being good.” It’s a mistake because no matter how good your are, all is lost if you are not saved / forgiven. I’d say that if you see yourself as so good that you can’t even fathom your sinfulness and need for forgiveness, you should be afraid. It’s a sign that God is honouring your desire to do life without Him. You may believe that thinking you’re “horrible” is a bad thing, but what’s far worse is to believe that the disease that is killing you is your greatest asset.
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“It's not just offensive to atheists to suggest this, it's offensive to anyone of any non-Christian religion who puts in the effort to be an amazing person.”

An amazing person? That’s funny. Is that what you are, Bret or GTA, or whoever wrote this? Are you an amazing person? I know. The concept of grace is terribly offensive to the natural man. Grace is so offensive that it would have never been invented by humans. Our pride and corrupt self-love demands that we take credit for our own salvation.

I’m curious, what percentage of humans do you think try to be amazing people i.e. try to do amazingly good things for others and for the planet? I’m guessing two percent, with the rest just wanting to make enough money to buy food and pay the rent. And no, I would not include myself in that two percent.
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“So then where's the motivation for Christians to be better?”

Where’s the motivation? Good grief, man! Our Creator (yours and mine), our Lord, our Saviour took His own penalty, endured His own wrath, suffered what we deserved so we don’t have to be eternally separated from Love. The only good person to ever walk the earth allowed us to do our absolute worst to Him so He could pay the penalty for our sins. And even though you’re still nailing Him to the cross He’d forgive you today if you let Him.
That’s the motivation! I offer my life to Jesus because He gave His life for me.

We are not good people:
We’ve told lies - that makes us liars
We’ve taken what doesn’t belong to us - that makes us thieves
We’ve fantasised about people seeing them as sexual objects - that makes us fornicators and adulterers and people who degrade others.
We’ve hated people and thought about ways of getting revenge - that makes us murderers
We’ve wanted what belongs to other people and not been satisfied with what we have, that makes us covetous
Every person on the planet is a hypocrite and a bigot to one degree or another
When Jesus was asked what's the greatest and most important commandment He said, “Love your Creator with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.” Nobody does that because we love ourselves more than we love the One who created us.

If these kinds of people were allowed into heaven, it wouldn’t be heaven. It would be earth with the same conditions that we have right now. Jesus isn’t being picky. He’s being Just.

There is not one crime or horrendous act of savagery that, given the right circumstances any one of us isn’t capable of committing. And if you can’t see that then you suffer from a profound lack of insight.

I could go on and on, but the fact remains that people are lying thieving, murdering, adulterers who want what they don’t have (and who are willing to go to war and kill others to get it) and who reject and ignore and actively rebel against their Creator. And instead of seeing that as a problem, most people, like you, say “They’re just little lies or only a few lies. I only took a few pens and sticky notes from the office. Everybody sees women as sexual objects once in awhile. There’s nothing wrong with anger as long as you don’t hurt anyone and blah, blah, blah.”

We don’t abhor sin. We celebrate it. We love reading about it and watching it. We actually watch murder and adultery and crime and war for entertainment. We make heroes out of psychopaths.

“All people, every single person on earth has sinned and fallen short of God’s demands for us. Regardless, they can be justified freely by God’s grace (He will give us what we don’t deserve - heaven) and mercy (He will not give us what we do deserve - eternal separation from His Love in hell) through our faith in Jesus.” Romans 3:23.

Because God is Just there will be consequences for the wrong that we do. We can either let Jesus pay the consequence for us, or we will pay it ourselves. No one needs to be surprised by this. Every atheist posting knows the ground rules well in advance.

“The wages of sin, the consequences of sin, the result of sin is hell. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

We are sinners who deserve to be banished from heaven, but God provided a way out for us. God didn’t even wait for us to do anything good, “While we were still His enemies, He died for us.” Romans 5:8

“If you declare out loud, “Jesus is my Lord, Master and Saviour,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be SAVED.” Romans 10:9
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“That is ultimately what I find so disgusting about Jesus; it doesn't matter how "good" you are, because we're supposedly all horrible enough to not deserve heaven.”

We’re less than Holy and nothing less than Holy will be allowed into heaven. It’s the spiritual reality in which we live. It’s not complicated. And besides, if we don’t use our Creator’s standard of “good enough” whose standard do you suggest we use? Yours? Mine? Hitler’s? I mean come on. You know very well that the only reason you think you’re a good person is because you can think of other people who are worse than you.

You don’t compare up.

You compare down.

What kind of a standard is that?

I’ve been involved in maximum security penitentiaries for ten years - child rapists, murderers, people who killed senior citizens for a few bucks, you name it, I’ve seen it and you know what? Not one of those men thought he was a bad person because just like you, he could think of at least one person who was worse than himself. I’ve maybe said this before but I’ll pose it again. Imagine yourself in your favourite restaurant ordering your favourite meal. And when it arrives you notice three of the chef’s pubic hairs in your food. Is that “horrible” enough to warrant returning the meal? How about two hairs? Would you still send it back if there was only one? Shouldn’t the chef think, “Ginx is just like that disgusting Jesus. It doesn’t matter how good the meal is, Ginx is always noticing what isn’t right.”

Or how about this? Imagine that you’re needing emergency abdominal surgery and the surgeon has several sterile scalpels on hand. Just as she is about to open you up she drops the scalpel on some bloody rags from a previous operation that for some reason weren’t cleaned up. Instead of opening the other sterile knives that she has available, she just picks up the dirty knife because, “It’s only a little bit of dirt.”

Since you’ve studied the Bible, you must surely know that the issue is not the amount of dirt.
It’s the presence of dirt - period.

It’s not the amount of sin (Really Horrible, Horrible, Good, Really Good).
The issue is the presence of sin - period.

To a perfectly Holy God, any sin is abhorrent, disgusting, intolerable. If you put one drop of black paint into a can of white paint, it is no longer white paint. It’s become something less than white, pure, perfect. Each and every atheist on the planet (each drop of black paint) thinks that an exception should be made for h/her and for h/her sins.

You and I are both sinners in need of forgiveness and freedom from real guilt. I’ve accepted this offer and you’ve refused the offer. That is the only difference between us.
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“Either your actions are important in Christianity, or they are not.”

Certainly, our actions are important, but not in the sense that they are capable of saving us. You probably know that 1st John 2:3,4 that says, “We can know that we have come to know Jesus, if we are obeying His commands. The person who says, “I’m a follower of Jesus,” but does not do what Jesus commands, is a liar and the truth is not in that kind of person.”

These two verses are not talking about how to be saved. These verses are talking about how we can know that we ARE saved. We know that we ARE saved when we willingly and gladly obey Jesus, when we desire to obey Jesus. He said, “The one who loves Me is the one who obeys Me. The one who does not love Me does not obey Me.” Obviously actions are important.

A little later, in 3:18 John is recorded as saying, “Don’t just say you love others. Prove your love by your actions.” Actions, thoughts, behaviors are extremely important in Christianity. Just not in the sense that you mistakenly long for. Now, to be fair, you can, if you want, be judged according to your behaviors, and in fact you WILL be judged according to your behaviors. But you need to accept that the only grade that will allow for entrance into heaven is perfection. And by the time you know that, it’s already too late because you’ve been sinning for many, many years.

I don’t think anyone ever quits sinning, but a Christian should be done with the pattern of sin that was part of their former self. If a person is a true follower of Jesus, the power of sin will have lost its organised, deliberate nature.

I’m sure you’re familiar with the account that Jesus told, of people coming to Jesus on the day of judgement and relating to Him all the good things they have done - in His Name. These are religious people. And what does Jesus say? “I never knew you. Get away from Me” (Matthew 7:21). The account begins with, “Not everyone who says to Me, “I am a Christian” will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.”

And yet you and other atheists say, “Oh yes they are. If people say they’re a Christian, then they damn well are Christians.

Faith alone does save because true faith brings with it the indwelling of God Himself through His Spirit. AND faith without works IS dead because it proves that the person is not indwelt by the Holy Spirt. There is no contradiction here. You’ve said it exactly right.
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“My view of good works has less to do with my Catholic upbringing than in my materialist view of the universe.”

Oh dear, you remind me of Somerset Maugham’s character Philip Carey. At 27 years old, you probably still think your ideas on virtue are original, and your breaking free from the constraints of the Church are due to how clever you are. Yes? You’ve discovered, on your own that enlightened self-interest is the evolutionary foundation of good behaviour? Yes? Ah youth. What are you going to do with it? You’ve not yet noticed that in order to be an “amazing person,” you’ll have to adhere to the same obligations and self-discipline that you were trying to avoid when you left the Church? I’ll stop now before I write “snerk!”

I think we both have very good reasons for doing everything we can to support life on this planet, to do good to others and to the planet itself. Your reasons are in part because you believe this is your only go-round, your only chance to make a difference. Well guess what. I too believe that this is my only chance to make a difference. This is my only chance to show my appreciation to the One who died so that I might live. My reason is also that because a Holy, Pure, Loving and Just God exists, everything and everyone is important. We (Christians) are here to become like Jesus and Jesus did not discount anyone or anything. That’s where His rage came from. Again, because of your studies, you’ll have notice that Jesus’ anger was directed almost exclusively toward the religious leaders who were making it difficult for sinners to come to Him for forgiveness. Forgiveness - the most important thing about your existence.

I thought you’d like that about Jesus.
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Finally, unlike Christians, atheists seem to have a very high opinion of their own virtue. This is odd since the things that atheists brag about: being honest, being kind, being honourable, and so on, are merely things that they should be doing. It’s nothing special. Nothing worth bragging about yet atheists seem to think they deserve a pat on the back and an “Atta boy” for doing what is expected of them. See Luke 17:10
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Hugo - “Deliciously ironic”

Well, it would be ironic - if Creator God did not exist. In fact the evidence of OUR existence points directly toward His existence. Hugo, you have a whole universe to account for.

I’m sure you’ve heard the statement, “Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence.”

The atheist claims:
“The material infinite exists,” or
“Everything material came from nothing material without a cause,” or
“Some things don’t need a cause to begin existing,”
are highly extraordinary claims which need extraordinary evidence to back them up.
Saying, “I don’t know” does not absolve you from needing to prove your statements that the coming into being of the material universe does not need a non material Cause.