Here’s one atheist’s comment -
“How can you see . . . ETERNAL PUNISHMENT AS RATIONAL?”
One can’t expect an atheist to understand the seriousness of evil. We actually have a clinical term for those who are incapable of discerning the gravity of their actions. Atheists simply don’t view themselves as people who do any serious wrong. Any wrong that they do admit to, in their minds, should just be ignored by their Creator. The level of personal responsibility that I encounter in atheists is practically zero. Gandolf is a good example of how atheists constantly point to others who do wrong in the hope that this will somehow negate their own culpability.
According to Jesus, that is not going to help. According to Jesus:
. We ARE wrong.
. We chose to BECOME wrong.
. Our world and our relationships both with others and with our Creator are being destroyed because of our choice and that is NOT going to be ignored by God.
Yes, there’s bad news in what Jesus teaches, but there’s also good news:
. The good news is, in the battle of good versus evil, evil has already been defeated. The end is in sight. The eternal banishment of evil will one day be recognised by everyone as being entirely rational.
. The bad news is, at the end of this age, evil and all those on the side of evil are going to be banished from God’s Kingdom - forever and ever.
Most people see that as a good thing.
Most people long for evil to be gone from their lives and from the world.
Most of us are appalled at the consequences upon the earth and upon relationships of the evil that resides within us.
Not so for atheists. These people become furious at God for “threatening them” by saying He’s going to do away with any and every form of evil. They even hate God for warning them that EITHER their evil nature goes (Jesus will remove it from them upon request), OR they will go, along with their evil nature. Atheists see that warning as a threat. Since they are determined, literally at all cost to remain enemies of their Creator, I suppose they should see it as a threat.
Here is the reality under which we live:
. Right now, we humans are tainted with the characteristic of evil. Who’s to blame really doesn’t matter. Evil is part of who we are. The evidence is everywhere, including my blog.
. One day everything that is tainted with evil will be eternally banished from God’s kingdom.
. Jesus will EITHER remove evil from you (He requires your permission to do so) so that you can be part of His good and perfect Kingdom, OR He will remove you and the evil that is part of you from His Kingdom.
Either way, evil is not going to be part of the coming Kingdom. The choice is yours to make. As hard as it is to believe, atheists view asking for the forgiveness of their sins as being more abhorrent than spending eternity in hell. It sounds insane but it’s true.
How can anyone think it rational to refuse the opportunity to be free from evil?
What kind of a person would think like that?
I’ll say it again:
. God has provided a way for evil to be removed from who you are
. God has provided a way for evil to be removed from the universe
. You can be part of God’s good and perfect Kingdom for eternity - OR
. You will be removed from God’s Kingdom, along with any and every aspect of evil for eternity
Either way, evil cannot be part of the coming Kingdom. The choice is yours to make. Atheists will tell you that there is no choice because in atheist-world asking for the forgiveness of their sins is more repugnant than spending eternity in hell. It sounds insane but it’s true.
How can anyone think it rational to refuse the opportunity to be free from evil?
What kind of a person would think like that?
You’ve probably heard of the Serenity Prayer? “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”
. How God created the universe is part of what we cannot change.
. Our response to the created order is part of what we CAN change.
. The invitation to become changed is being made even as you read this.
God is entirely just and justice demands that the penalty for evil be paid.
We can EITHER let Jesus pay the penalty for the evil that is in us OR we will pay the penalty ourselves.
So why not just do the RATIONAL thing and avoid eternal separation from God’s eternal Kingdom? You can either get into the life-boat that has been provided OR like atheists, you can stay on the sinking ship, endlessly debating who is responsible for the ship going down.
People who are atheists view themselves as the most rational beings on earth. Why not PROVE that you are a rational human being by accepting the only rational alternative to eternity in hell?
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Atheists simply don’t view themselves as people who do any serious wrong
ReplyDeleteWhy do you lie about other people, Thesauros? More ironically, why don't you see lying as evil?
Are you saying that you DO see yourself as guilty by God's standards?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that you DO see yourself as guilty by God's standards?
ReplyDeleteFirst) We don't believe YOUR god is real, so we don't care about its standards. They come from YOU, and nobody else.
Second) I wrote clearly that it's the total opposite. We, as non-believers, have nobody else than ourselves to face; no imaginary friend to comfort us when we realize we did something bad. It's called being responsible for our actions, and feeling guilt and remorse.
Unfortunately for us, there is no Jesus-like figure to ask forgiveness to. If I do something bad to someone, I'll ask forgiveness to THEM directly. If I cant, I'll try to deal with it, and try not to repeat the mistakes, because yes, each and every single bad actions that I made I consider it to be a mistake, not something that will be forgiven by an imaginary divine figure at the end of my life.
What you see as a waiting room is my paradise, and I despise you for corrupting it.
Are you saying that you DO lie about people?
ReplyDeleteWhy are you putting so much effort into being dishonest? What benefit could it possibly provide you with?
ReplyDeleteGOD 1 - Atheists 0
ReplyDeleteAtheists,
you are ENEMIES OF GOD AND ARE GOING TO BE ANNIHILATED...
Repent and turn to God or be destroyed...
YOU HAVE NO CHOICE...
my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE... it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism...
http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/topofthetimes/national/la-naw-0616-jesus-statue-lightning-20100616,0,4295974.story
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/6/16/1276680110544/The-King-of-Kings-statue--005.jpg
http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-06/54332292.jpg
http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/butterjesus-1.jpg
PRINCESS DI IS WEARING A NEW DRESS!
http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/a_speech_by_hrh_the_prince_of_wales_titled_islam_and_the_env_252516346.html
______________________________
http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/06/would-i-ever-pray-for-a-miracle/
Shermer, I WANT TO SEE YOU BEG FOR A MIRACLE...
___________________
we do like your music Lady Gaga, but...
The B**BQUAKE - 911
Let me show you the FATE OF TRAITORS...
http://www.loiterink.com/photos/products/182_3424_500x500.jpg
they are incapable of telling the difference between SCIENTIFIC *FACT* AND RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL *TRUTH*... FATAL ERROR!
they also preach a *VALUE FREE SCIENCE* called *POSITIVISM* that ignores the inequalities of wealth and power in capitalist civilization...
for a sample taste of PZ Myers' GARBAGE...
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/sunday_sacrilege_imagine_no_he.php
HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!
http://hawaiiwebgroup.com/maui-design/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/website-hijacking.jpg
HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!
how can these HEADLESS IDIOTS BET AGAINST GOD!!!
________________________________________
what happens when you LOSE Pascal's Wager...
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
_____________
you FIGHT PAPER MONSTERS...
the blood and bodies of the atheist movement...
you mofos killed MICKEY MOUSE!!!!
this has more TRUTH then what Dawkins, Randi, Harris, Myers, and Shermer
combined have said in their entire lives...
http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=5R2wE8Sduhs&playnext_from=TL&videos=hht1U_19anc&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh%2Bdiv-1r-3-HM
they tried to BULLDOZE the entire METAPHYSICAL DIMENSION...
they LOST THE WAR......
you have FORFEIT YOUR SOUL, shermer... you have become an object in the
material world, as you WISHED...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUB4j0n2UDU
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/7/11792994_ffaaee87fa.jpg
we're gonna smash that TV...
They had become ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE AND OF GOD...
you pushed too much and *CROSSED THE LINE*
degenerates (PZ) or children (HEMANT) - ATHEISTS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRRg2tWGDSY
do you have anything to say, you STUPID LITTLE F*CKER?
how about I tell you, Mr. Shermer, EVERYTHING YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORLD is
*WRONG*
THE BOOBQUAKE - 911!
http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/philosophy-f1/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx7XNb3Q9Ek
RUN, ATHEISTS, RUN!!!
-------------------
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/dante-inferno-information.html
the 9th and FINAL RING of Dante's Inferno is designed for little blaspheming traitors like you...
"This is the deepest level of hell, where the fallen angel Satan himself resides. His wings flap eternally, producing chilling cold winds that freeze the thick ice found in Cocytus..."
but at least FREE AIR CONDITIONING is included!
Hugo said..."It's called being responsible for our actions, and feeling guilt and remorse.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for us, there is no Jesus-like figure to ask forgiveness to. If I do something bad to someone, I'll ask forgiveness to THEM directly."
What ??%$#*?? ...Oooh no what?? no faithful escapism ??.You mean if i lie about Gandolf i cant simply rid myself of all wrongdoing by crying ....Forgive me father for i have sinned again ..and again...and again n again n again ..And keep using my faith escapism to escape ever needing to honestly face up?
Oh nooooo Hugo ...In your world ill need to honestly face some real honest change, otherwise my words will only be considdered worthless continued recital of words.
Ooooh no i Mak far prefer methods of "faithful escapism" kinda like the Pope and Benny Hinn uses too.I far prefer to pretend im sorry.Far prefer to keep getting away with pretending im something different .I like living in a feeble make believe faith world like the Popes and Benny Hinns etc , we simply think ourselves something we are not,even try fooling the world we are different .And bingo it sooths and sets free our ecapist minds , we can blatantly lie about people, move priestly child molestors around to save face, or produce miles and miles of deceitful miracles ...And as long as we keep claiming "forgive me father im a sinner" no worries ! ...everythings simply sweet as
Tweedle dee dee ..Oh what a wonderful faith world Mak and the Pope and Benny Hinn rip offs live in ...Traa laaa laaaa wooopeee ...Jesus loves us this we know for the bible tell us so
Mak said..."Gandolf is a good example of how atheists constantly point to others who do wrong in the hope that this will somehow negate their own culpability."
ReplyDeleteOh yeah ...Thats why im not interested in joining deceitful faith bigots like Mak the never ending serial liar, Pope the save face childmoslestor hider,Benny Hinn the miracle deceiver
I know im responsible for myself,which is why im seen to be so very keen, to quickly jump in the same poison these deceitful bunch are swallowing.
Mak said..."We can EITHER let Jesus pay the penalty for the evil that is in us OR we will pay the penalty ourselves"
ReplyDeleteTranslation : I can simply lie about Gandolf as much as i like ! .....Jesus forgives me every single time a coconut... because i keep asking him too ..Traaa laaa laaa ...Oh how i love my faith escapism ...Traa laaa laaa
"Oh yeah ...Thats why im not interested in joining deceitful faith bigots like Mak the never ending serial liar, Pope the save face childmoslestor hider,Benny Hinn the miracle deceiver"
ReplyDeleteYou still don’t get it. This life is between you and Jesus. You don’t "join" me. I'm nobody to follow.
You either join or reject Jesus. Jesus is calling you to salvation and He is not going to allow you to use me or that con-man Hinn as an excuse for rejecting that salvation.
He's not saying he's joining YOU, Makarios.
ReplyDeleteMore dishonesty? Imagine my surprise...
"no faithful escapism"
ReplyDeleteThe ONLY thing that Christians escape is hell.
On earth we experience the same consequences for our action as you do. My wife and I led profoundly evil lives before we made the choice the follow Jesus. The consequences for our actions have and will follow us for the rest of our lives.
A major difference between Christianity and atheism is that on atheism, there is no ultimate justice.
Our good actions go unrewarded and our evil actions go unpunished. On atheism, if a person can get away with his wrong actions during this life, if that person can somehow hide the wrong actions and many, many people do, s/he gets away completely. That's why everyone lies. What percentage of people who are guilty of crimes plead guilty, do you think? In our "create your own mix and match morality" society, sponsored in full by atheists, unless your lawyer can prove that I'm guilty, I'll actually believe that I'm innocent. Deny, deny, deny.
On Christianity, ultimate justice will be paid. EITHER Jesus pays the price for our wrong doing, or we as individuals will pay the price. This is no easy ride for me here. Yes my sins are forgiven but my Saviour was tortured to death so that I might be forgiven. You won’t understand it.
@Gandolf
ReplyDeleteFunny impersonification ;)
***
Thesauros said
"no faithful escapism"
The ONLY thing that Christians escape is hell.
But also claimed that...
on atheism, there is no ultimate justice
He doesn't see the contradiction, which is pathetic. He claims that Christianity offers justice, while at the same claiming that as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, anything can be forgiven. The amount/gravity of sins is pointless as we are all sinners deserving hell anyway.
OK, fine, on Earth we do get the same social justice, at least he recognizes part of the real world we live in, but the ultimate justice he talks about is anything but justice:
On Christianity, ultimate justice will be paid. EITHER Jesus pays the price for our wrong doing, or we as individuals will pay the price. This is no easy ride for me here. Yes my sins are forgiven but my Saviour was tortured to death so that I might be forgiven. You won’t understand it.
Quite the contrary of course, that belief system is extremely simple and childish. Instead of facing his actions as a responsible human being that could improve himself and others' lives in the process, he falls back on Jesus. THAT is faithful escapism as Gandolf described it.
Moreover, if Christianity were true, which it is not, it would be disgusting. Having someone tortured for what YOU do is suppose to be a good thing? Seriously? So childish again...
In other words, I find it terrible to read "EITHER Jesus pays the price for our wrong doing, or we as individuals will pay the price". I would rather pay it myself, no hesitation. Just the thought of having someone else pay for my wrong actions makes me sick. That's what he does not understand.
"I would rather pay it myself, no hesitation"
ReplyDeleteIn atheist-world asking for forgiveness is more repugnant than spending eternity in hell.
It sounds insane but it’s true.
How can anyone think it rational to refuse the opportunity to be free from evil? What kind of a person would think like that?
"I would rather pay it myself,
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"I would rather pay it myself,
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"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
"I would rather pay it myself,
I wonder how many times you'll repeat that line over the span of an eternity.
You're not even trying to add to this conversation.
ReplyDeleteI do not live in an atheistic world. True justice involves me paying the fine for whatever crime I've committed. It would be unjust to have anyone else pay it. It would also be unjust to allow me to escape punishment merely by expressing sincere regret at having broken the law.
---
By the way, could a perfect omnipotent omniscient Being create a human who both
1) had the ability to make his own choices
2) was unable to destroy the Being's creation
?
"It would be unjust to have anyone else pay it."
ReplyDeleteAh, the noble atheist. They always bring to me a smile of sadness. Listen! Jesus did not pay your debt because He thought you were too lazy, or too careless, or too immature to do it yourself.
Jesus payed the penalty of your sin because the enormity of your sin carries a debt that you cannot EVER pay.
Atheists (and you are as much an atheist as anyone else commenting here) are so bloody arrogant!!!
The mere suggestion that you would pay your own debt is worse than laughable. It’s an insult. The very reason that evil and those on the side of evil will spend eternity in hell is because even an eternity cannot begin to pay down the punishment that is deserving for rejecting and denying your Creator.
1) had the ability to make his own choices
ReplyDelete2) was unable to destroy the Being's creation
I answered this on the other post but I'll do so here as well.
You mean someone who would only "choose" to do the right thing. That's some idea of choice that you entertain. Actually, even you could create a being like that. It's called a robot.
Whateverman wrote the following: "It would be unjust to have anyone else pay it."
ReplyDeleteA false christian responded as follows: Ah, the noble atheist. They always bring to me a smile of sadness.
Two lies. I'm not an atheist, and you did not smile as you typed that.
Jesus did not pay your debt because He thought you were too lazy, or too careless, or too immature to do it yourself.
Jesus payed the penalty of your sin because the enormity of your sin carries a debt that you cannot EVER pay.
Why he paid it is immaterial. Justice dictates that *I* pay whatever fine is to be levied, regardless of whether I am able to pay it or not. It is unjust to have someone else pay it for me.
PS. you really don't care whether you go to Hell or not, do you... If as a non-Christian, I see someone claiming that sin is horrendously worse than anything I could imagine, and then I see this same person committing sins himself, just how much credibility do you imagine I'd give that Christian?
I would probably simply dismiss the idea that the person believes what he/she/it is saying...
1) had the ability to make his own choices
ReplyDelete2) was unable to destroy the Being's creation
A false christian responded with this: I answered this on the other post but I'll do so here as well.
You mean someone who would only "choose" to do the right thing. That's some idea of choice that you entertain.
Stop lying. I said the person had the ability to make his own choices. YOU YOURSELF have equated this phrase with the term "free will" in the past, but now you're trying to imply it means a lack of free will?
You're stupid AND dishonest.
Try answering a question directly and to the point, just once. Could a perfect Being create a human with free will while also preventing this human from being able to destroy the Being's creation?
You wont answer the question because you're scared of what the answer implies.
I would rather pay it myself,
ReplyDeleteI would rather pay it myself,
I would rather pay it myself,
I would rather pay it myself,
I would rather pay it myself,
I would rather pay it myself,
I wonder how many times you'll repeat that line over the span of an eternity.
Nobody will burn for an eternity. This is due to the fact that we are not ALREADY burning for eternity. So, we must BEGIN to burn for an eternity. However a true eternity cannot "begin". To put any type of measure on infinity negates infinity. Because if we start to burn, then we pause at ANY moment and measure the amount of time we've already spent in hell we will ALWAYS get a finite measurement. This is because there is NO point where finite becomes infinite. Measurement completely voids infinity, and as long as you begin, you are also measuring the amount of time spent in hell.
also, you cannot have a number of times someone "will repeat that" because a number is finite. You won't be able to measure any number without defined parameters. For instance you could measure all numbers between 1 and one billion. You cannot do this with infinity. To measure an infinite something requires an infinite amount of time. To begin to measure voids an actual infinity, leaving only a "potential infinity" which isn't an actual infinity, but a term that describes something as "indefinite"
but you already knew all this I'm sure. If you need me to draw it out in color crayons next time, let me know.
@Thesauros
ReplyDeleteRod, you're interpretation of my comment is wrong and by misreprenting it (again...), you explicitly shows how simple and childish your view of the REAL world we live in is.
@Atheistsnackbar
You're description of why discussing eternity/infinity is conceptual, not real, is accurate.
What's really ironic is that Thesauro will eventually discuss cosmology again, as he always do, in order to justify his Creator God. When he does that, he will claim that Atheists believe in an 'infinite regress of causes', which is false of course, and will then attack this strawman by saying that an infinite regress is impossible...
In other words, God can be infinite, our souls can exist for an eternity, but not the universe...
Like you, I prefer to use the mathematical definition of infinity that is purely conceptual and NEVER pointing to any real entities, but that's because we are slow of mind and dull of thought apparently. Only Christians like Thesauros are smart enough to know what kind of infinity exists, and what kind does not...
"Justice dictates that *I* pay"
ReplyDeleteYou're absolutely correct.
Grace dictates that we DON'T get what we do deserve - hell
Mercy dictates that we DO get what we don't deserve - heaven
Anyone who places their trust in what Jesus accomplished for all of us on the cross - the forgiveness of our sins, grace and mercy are theirs in abundance.
Because you refuse this offer of forgiveness, justice WILL be yours in abundance.
Only you can keep that from happening. All you need to do is repent of your sins. Sadly, in atheist-world asking for forgiveness is more repugnant than spending eternity in hell.
In refusing God's grace and mercy and love and forgiveness, atheists see themselves as noble and courageous. It sounds insane but it’s true.
How can anyone think it rational to refuse the opportunity to be free from evil? What kind of a person would think like that?
Because you refuse this offer of forgiveness, justice WILL be yours in abundance.
ReplyDeleteDishonesty again - you've earned yourself a 50 yard-line seat in Gehenna today alone...
Until you tried to move the goal posts, the conversation was about the injustice of having someone else pay your fine for you. It was unjust to have Jesus die for my sins; I should have been born, crucified then tortured for all eternity as soon as Adam bit into the apple.
But instead of addressing the point, you misdirect this into a discussion of God's grace, ignoring that we were talking about justice.
It's very difficult imagining you to be able to raise kids, let alone being worthy of the responsibility...
When you say stuff like "These people [atheists] become furious at God for “threatening them” by saying He’s going to do away with any and every form of evil." You sound like nails on a chalkboard.
ReplyDeleteI am not furious at God. I am furious at Zeus, he cheated on his wife Hera to many times. Not a very good role model for my nephew. And don't get me started about those F** unicorns... Seriously, how come pelicans are all getting caught up in the Gulf of Mexico oil spill? I say we round up all the damn unicorns we can find, drown them and soak up the oil with their manes.