I’m off to the lake so this will be the last post till Saturday - anyhow >
That’s what Hugo asked. “Why do you still refuse to admit that you have faith in Jesus?” And I’m thinking, What the heck are you talking about?
In my post, “Why I’m Not An Atheist” http://thesauros-store.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-im-not-atheist.html
a substantial portion of the post talks about the aspect of faith - my faith. It might not hurt to remind at this point that atheists define faith as "believing something in the absence of any evidence.” Well, that may be what atheists think but I don't know of any Christians who think that way. For that reason I’m going to post some of the thoughts that have helped to shape my understanding of faith over the years.
For the record, Hugo, I have no trouble at all “admitting” that faith plays a role in what I believe. Faith is not some kind of dirty word. In fact faith plays a huge role even in what you believe. There’s a fairly recent book out, almost five hundred pages long documenting things that atheists have no choice but to believe by faith. None of us knows everything for sure. Not even regarding the most important things in life. Faith is a common factor for every single one of us. As I’ve said before, it would seem that agnostics are the ones who could call themselves the most scientifically minded. For they are the ones who only go as far as the evidence will take them. Christians and atheists, on the other hand, use inductive reasoning to take them part way, and then bring about a deductive conclusion based upon that evidence in combination with their pre-set or desired world-view.
Below is some of the information that I’ve collected over the years that has helped to shape my own understanding of faith.
“God is supremely rational, and the human being is also a rational being created in the image and likeness of God. Hence religion, which is the expression of the deep relationship between God and human kind cannot be but rational.” Johannes Kepler, “What if the Bible had never been written.”
“Now I define faith as the power of continuing to believe what we once honestly thought to be true until cogent reasons for honestly changing our minds are brought before us.” C. S. Lewis, “The Seeing Eye”
“Faith is a trust in what we have reason to believe is true. Understood in this way we see that faith is built on reason. We should have good reasons for thinking that Christianity is true before we dedicate ourselves completely to it.” J. P. Mooreland
“Belief, in the Christian sense, seems to be assent to a proposition which we think so overwhelmingly probable that there is a psychological exclusion of doubt though not a logical exclusion of dispute.” C. S. Lewis, “Obstinacy of Belief”
“Reason directs those who are truly pious and philosophical to honour and love what is true. Justin Martyr, “The first Apology.”
“Philosophy is a kind of preparatory training to those who attain to faith through demonstration. So also here I call him truly learned who brings everything to bear on the truth, so that from geometry and music and grammar and philosophy itself, culling what is useful, he guards the faith against assault. ”Clement of Alexandria, “The Stromata”
“Creation itself reveals Him who created it, and the work made is suggestive of Him who made it, and the world manifests Him that arranged it.” Irenaeous of Lyon, “Barr 13"
“We must first be instructed by reason and then we share and understand the sacred and mystical teachings.” Basil of Caesarea “Christianity and Classical Culture”
“Faith is what gives fullness to our reasoning,” Gregory of Nazianzus
“Reason is a thing of God, inasmuch as God, the maker of all has not provided, disposed, ordained by reason, nothing which He has not willed should be handled and understood by reason.” Stark, “For the Glory of God.”
“Heaven forbid that we should believe in such a way as not to accept or seek reasons for our belief since we could not even believe if we did not possess rational souls. But they are much deceived, who think that we believe in Christ without any proofs concerning Christ.” Augustine, “Concerning Faith In Things Not Seen”
“I believe in order to understand.” Anselm
“While faith comes first in time, knowledge comes first in importance. Faith and reason do not conflict but instead compliment each other.” St Anselm, “Credo, ut inttigam”
“It was necessary for man’s salvation that there should be a knowledge revealed by God, besides the philosophical sciences investigated by human reason.” Anselm, “Summa Theologica”
“The principles of any science are either themselves self-evident or reducible to the knowledge of a higher science. Individual facts establish the authority of those men through whom the divine revelation has come down to us. Hence the fact that some happen to doubt about the articles of faith is not due to the uncertain nature of the truths, but to the weakness of the human intellect.” Thomas Aquinas
“The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith for faith presupposes natural knowledge” Thomas Aquinas
“Thought constitutes the greatness of man.” Blaise Pascal “Section 12 “Proofs of Jesus.””
“Unreasonable and absurd ways of life are truly an offence to God.” William Law, “Love God With All Your Mind.”
“Ignorance is the mother not of devotion but of heresy.” Cotton Mather
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen." Hebrews 11:1
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Your surely referring to the book "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist." If we've read your blog, we've pretty much read that book. In fact, some of your posts look like they're right out if the book. Atheists may have "faith" about certain things, but our faith and yours are not the same. Atheists do not dress up every Sunday and sing songs about that which they confess faith in. Atheists do not defer medical treatment for their children because they have faith that prayer is the only true medicine. Atheists do not strap bombs on their chests because they have faith that a personal god insists we do "his" dirty work. Atheists don't dilute the importance of this life because they have faith that the TRUE life is yet to come. Atheists aren't charitable because they have faith that god is watching. Atheists don't base family values, morals, friends, habits, and daily activities solely on the faith of ritualistic dogma, atleast not at the level of the theist. We have faith that the universe just began? No. We have theories. Your the one who waxes and polishes faith to make it look like evidence.
ReplyDeleteatheists define faith as "believing something in the absence of any evidence.”
ReplyDeleteIt's one of the definitions yes. You suggested me using Dictionary.com to learn about the meaning of the word "supernatural" and you are too dumb to use it yourself?
FAITH:
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
it would seem that agnostics are the ones who could call themselves the most scientifically minded. For they are the ones who only go as far as the evidence will take them. Christians and atheists, on the other hand, use inductive reasoning to take them part way, and then bring about a deductive conclusion based upon that evidence in combination with their pre-set or desired world-view.
You don't understand any of the person who you "discuss" here on this blog. None of us pretend to be gnostic about the notion of God.
We are ALL agnostics. Perhaps except you, since you not only believe in a god (ur a theist right?), but also claim to know a personal god.
Your hypothesis is something like:
There is a god, He exists, He is not imaginary, He created the universe, He came to Earth in the form of a human-like person called Jesus who was born from a virgin, performed miracles, was crucified and resurrected.
Atheists do not believe that hypothesis to be supported by evidence, hence they reject it.
Technically, a lot more people than those of us who call themselves Atheists will also reject that claim. But it's only because the word Atheists also imply that this group of people reject the more general claim:
'There is a god, He exists, He is not imaginary, He created the universe'
Same thing...
Atheists do not believe that hypothesis to be supported by evidence, hence they reject it.
For theists, on the other hand:
The first hypothesis is accepted by Christians only.
The second hypothesis is accepted by all Theists.
So, let me now ask you, well, it's not really a question because we already know the answer, it's just rhetoric...
Thesauros, do you have evidence to support your hypothesis? is it even possible? is it probable? is it proven to be true?
. Of course it can't be "proven" as in beyond ALL doubt. Neither can most of the stuff you believe.
ReplyDelete. I think that there is evidence beyond a REASONABLE doubt.
. I BELIEVE beyond all doubt. Whatever doubts I might have had at one point have been overcome by a relationship with Jesus that cannot be proven with evidence as most people understand evidence.
. I BELIEVE beyond all doubt. Whatever questions that I have that cannot be answered at this point have been overcome by a relationship with Jesus that cannot be proven with evidence as most people understand evidence.
I've given the reasons that I think the evidence points toward a theistic God.
http://thesauros-store.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-im-not-atheist.html
Of course it can't be "proven" as in beyond ALL doubt. Neither can most of the stuff you believe.
ReplyDeleteLike what???? Give me one freaking example of something I believe based on faith, or not proven beyond all doubt. Just ONE.
All you do on this blog is misrepresent Atheists or any other Non-Christian that YOU consider Atheists. You never ever address any of my beliefs and tell me why they are wrong or not supported by evidence. Now you claim that 'MOST' of what I believe is NOT proven beyond all doubt!?
That's when you write things like this that I claim you are not a liar, but simply ignorant...
That's why the arguments you gave in that silly post could be addressed in that one sentence by an anonymous commenter:
You present an argument from ignorance.
There is many many things concerning the universe that you don't understand, just like anybody else, and pretend that this MUST be the proof that a god exists. You then conclude that this is YOUR god.
It's that simple.
Your relationship with Jesus has nothing to do with a proof that God exists; it's only comforting for you. Enjoy it, but don't pretend that's anything close to a rational proof that God exists that any human being should believe.
Like what???? Give me one freaking example of something I believe based on faith, or not proven beyond all doubt. Just ONE.
ReplyDeleteGod doesn't exist.
How bout we save time and do two:
ReplyDeleteGod doesn't exist and
Life came unaided from non life
God doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteNot my belief.
Nice try.
Life came unaided from non life
Not my belief.
I believe it is possible that life arose from non-life, there are a few different ways it could have happened.
It could also be extra-terrestrial who drop some DNA here and there in the galaxy.
It could also be a "magical" event that we have no description of. Magical meaning unknown for us now.
etc....
There are many possibilities that make sense, some don't.
YOU, on the other hand, claim that it is IMPOSSIBLE for life to arise from non-life.
YOU, on the other hand, claim that it is IMPOSSIBLE for life to arise from non-life."
ReplyDeleteYes, and? I make no appology for that. It's what has been consistently observed and tested and verified FOREVER. There have been no exceptions noted - EVER. That IS the scientific method of knowing something - right?
It is you, Hugo who believes, not because of proof but because of faith that life could have arisen from non life. NOTHING in our experience or testing indicates that specified, complex, formulated information arises from ANYTHING BUT intelligent input / creation. You believe otherwise on faith alone.
Do you believe that Creator God does not exists? Yes. Do you have proof? No. You believe it on faith.
You and Allah Snackbar may believe in magic. I do not.
Life is simply a process. Non-living things are made of exactly the same things as living things. People did not know that only a few dozen years ago.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, why do you consider living things to be so special that it is absolutely impossible for them to form under natural processes?
Your "specified complexity" argument is bogus and you have been exposed to the reasons why many times before. It has no basis in biology. It has been presented by religious apologists alone...
The first self-replicating lifeform did not have to be complex. Why do you think it had to be?
Well, we more or less know why you think so, because... you do not understand what life in the biological sense is!
Moreover, the origin of the first complex lifeform is not that important for my understanding of the evolution of all the other lifeforms, which is something I strongly believe in, i.e., the current Theory of Evolution.
We know, for a fact, that all eukariota share one or a few common ancestors: the first eukarioata cells. It was definetely not as complex as the current eukariota cell but it did have the basic components. From it were formed a multitude of lifeforms that we observe today. This process was NOT guided by any intelligent process. That is a fact.
So even if we were to agree that this very first cell was indeed programmed by an intelligent agent, it is irrelevant to understanding man's origin, which is what is really at stakes here.
***
So... do I believe that Creator God does not exist? I don't know, what is Creator God exactly? If it's the source of the universe as we know it, it's just another label for "source of the universe", so yes I believe in it... but why use a different word?
If it's the intelligent agent that started life, then he left Earth a long time ago and did not care about his eukaryota cells and the other cousins that did not produce very complex life forms... so why bother call him God?
***
I believe in magic? haha, can you make a most obvious projection than that? You're the one who believes Jesus performed some magic tricks and label them miracles...
IRT life never arising from non-life, Thesauros wrote the following:
ReplyDeleteIt's what has been consistently observed and tested and verified FOREVER. There have been no exceptions noted - EVER. That IS the scientific method of knowing something - right?
Correct - mostly. That scientific method also says that the knowledge gained from this process is never absolute or unchanging. Life may indeed rise from non-life.
Claiming to know that it's impossible is a rejection of the scientific method.
Life may indeed rise from non-life.
ReplyDeleteAnd by faith, not by evidence but by faith that is what you believe.
Nope. I have no beliefs about life rising from non-life.
ReplyDeleteDo you enjoy being wrong?
Life may indeed rise from non-life.
ReplyDeleteAnd by faith, not by evidence but by faith that is what you believe.
Yes I believe it is possible since there is absolutely no component of a living thing that is not found somewhere else in nature.
I don't know how. Do you? NO. You have no clue what the first life form must have looked like. You claim because other apologists say so, that it had to be complex.
So, tell me, exactly what parts had to be brought together by an intelligent design. What components had to be put together non-naturally? Can you give a list or detailed explanations?
*****
Then, let's say I agree with the proof, you will need to tell me if you have an explanation as of why the intelligent agent let everything evolved naturally after that.
Or perhaps you disagree...
Do you believe, yes or no, that all animals/plants, all lifeforms on Earth, share one, or very few, common ancestors?
If YES, do you know what they looked like? I certainly don't! How can you know enough about it, or them, to claim that the natural material they were made of had to be manipulated by some mystic force that put them in a certain way that would start a self-replication, and then let it go to evolve completely naturally, giving rise to all animals, all plants, all cells, all bacteria, all viruses... what is that hypothesis useful for? What does it explain? Is it falsifiable?
If you answer No. Then what part of evolution exactly do you not believe in? What 'kind' of living things could not have evolved? What were the first 'kind' of living things to be created in order to have all the varieties we have today?
Because that is what I truly believe in, and you claim that Atheists are stupid are retarded but you don't even start by discussing the true beliefs. You jump to the 'I-don't-know' and try to bash on it. that's why I say it's not important, because it's NOT one of my core beliefs. It's a consequence of so many other beliefs.
I guess I have a more concrete belief than WEM for example, we are all different, but I still don't claim to KNOW how life started, or belief that it HAD to be a certain way... unlike you. You claim it had to be a certain way, but cannot explain how, or what was the exact result of that process.
So, again,
Do you believe, yes or no, that all animals/plants, all lifeforms on Earth, share one, or very few, common ancestors?
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