That is the kind of universe that we inhabit. The laws of logic, mathematics and morality are not invented. Rather, they are discovered.
“There exists independently of the human mind, a raw and immutable mathematical reality.”
Alain Connes – “Chair of Analysis and Geometry at the College de France”
Plato held that these laws were timeless and unchanging. In fact, he said they were “more real” than the things we perceive with our senses.” Plato understood that goodness and beauty exist and makeup reality. Certainly these laws are not something the way cars or buildings or even an atom is something. But they are not nothing either. In fact, these laws are necessary for our visible reality to exist. But where did this reality originate?
“Mathematicians should have the courage of their most profound convictions, and thus affirm that mathematical forms indeed have an existence that is independent of the mind considering them.”
Rene Thom
If mathematical entities do exist, they have to exist necessarily from all eternity. That should not surprise since mathematics, morality and logic are part of the character of Creator God, who is an immaterial, eternal Being.
“Mathematical entities are as real and mind-independent as Mount Everest. It's almost as though the physical world is built out of mathematics.”
Roger Penrose
To look for the cause of the universe is to look for God. A wondrous reality in which we live, is that when we are exploring moral good, or the laws of logic, or the laws of mathematics or the laws of nature, when we examine a flower petal, an insect wing or the human genetic code, we are in fact exploring parts and portions of the very character of God Himself.
“God is a mathematician.”
astronomer James Jeans
I'm not suggesting that moral goods are good because God thinks them, or even commands them. Laws of mathematics or logic do not exist because God thinks them. Moral goods exist, mathematical laws and the laws of logic exist because a logical, orderly and morally perfect God exists. Nietzsche was absolutely correct. Without God, there is no moral standard by which we must abide. He could have said, without God, a mathematically precise, life-supporting, moral and logical universe would not exist.
“Not only do mathematical entities seem to be out there – eternal, objective, immutable – they also appear to be sovereign over the physical universe. How else can we account for the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the natural sciences?”
Eugene Wigner
The good that we ought to do are not based upon arbitrary or capricious commands, for the good that we ought to do flows directly from the character of the Being and existence of God Himself. Because God is morally good, only those thoughts and behaviours that cohere with God's nature can be called, good. This is what makes morality objective.
Because God is omnipotent, only a universe created by Him will hold together and have its existence according to the laws of logic and physics that we have discovered.
“You can recognize truth by its beauty and simplicity. When you get it right, it is obvious that its right. If, in Galileo's phrase, the book of nature is written in the language of mathematics this could only be because the natural would itself is inherently mathematical.”
Richard Feyman
Of course atheists by the score, think it preposterous that logic, morality and mathematical laws should exist independent of the human mind.
But think about it! Wouldn't it be dishonest to pretend those laws aren't real if they are indispensable to our scientific understanding of the contingent world? Of course we don't observe these laws directly, but we need them to explain what we do see. It seems to me that we have the same kind of reason for believing these laws exist as we have for believing in Dark Matter or Higgs Bossen.
And if we believe these eternal laws exist, we must believe that Creator God exists because Creator God is the only logical explanation for the existence of these laws.
What kind of person would reject this obvious conclusion?
What kind of person would reject this obvious conclusion?
ReplyDeletePeople who use logic and reason instead of emotions and common sense to form their beliefs.
So the people that I quoted are just acting on emotions? They really don't know anything about science?
ReplyDeleteI dont have any issue with the science. The conclusion is what is based on logical fallacies. It assumes several things just because they seem obvious. Accepting it feels right.
ReplyDeleteHugo, both of us have exactly the same evidence to examine. I have come to the conclusion that the existence of matter / energy requires an external, eternal Creator. You have decided that it doesn't. Why is my conclusion emotional and yours is not? You have no more evidence for "no God" than I have for His existence. Why is my conclusion emotional and your is not?
ReplyDeleteBecause...
ReplyDeleteA) You have no more evidence for "God" than I have.
Hence, the rational position is to not believe there is a god.
B) You don't look at all the options; claiming once in a while that "God", your god, cannot not exists.
C) You are emotionally attached to your god. You talk to him, you seek advice from him, you are grateful, etc...
D) You refuse to accept your own mortality and are convinced that you will have an eternal life thanks to a loving god.
E) Some elements of your life story, that you mentioned several times, testify to the emotional scars you have, the emotional reactions you depict and the religious beliefs you have as a result.
NOTE: I am no less emotional than you for anything else; but for the 'God' question, I am. That's all.
ReplyDelete"You have no more evidence for "God" than I have.
I have a universe full of evidence Hugo. A universe that demands an explanation for it's existence. The universe could not have a natural / material cause for its beginning because nothing natural / material existed until BB.
=====
“Hence, the rational position is to not believe there is a god.”
. It's rational to believe that matter created itself?
. It's rational to believe that matter pre existed itself?
. It's rational to believe in an infinite regress of cause?
. It's matter to believe that matter is eternal?
=====
B) You don't look at all the options; claiming once in a while that "God", your god, cannot not exists.
What options have I not considered?
=====
C) You are emotionally attached to your god. You talk to him, you seek advice from him, you are grateful, etc...
Absolutely I am. He exists. He is real. He is personal. Only a fool would not seek out a healed relationship with such a Being.
=====
D) You refuse to accept your own mortality and are convinced that you will have an eternal life thanks to a loving god.
Atheists are funny that way. They seem to think that they are the only ones who have one life to live on this planet; only one chance to do the best they can. Atheists confuse the rest of us with cats and seem to think that we have nine lives.
=====
E) Some elements of your life story, that you mentioned several times, testify to the emotional scars you have, the emotional reactions you depict and the religious beliefs you have as a result.
My religious beliefs are a result of Jesus showing me the reality of His existence.
Rod,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
You have no more evidence for "no God" than I have for His existence. Why is my conclusion emotional and your is not?
I thus replied:
Hence, the rational position is to not believe there is a god.
Now you say:
I have a universe full of evidence Hugo.
Make up your mind.
The universe could not have a natural / material cause for its beginning because nothing natural / material existed until BB.
. It's rational to believe that matter created itself?
. It's rational to believe that matter pre existed itself?
. It's rational to believe in an infinite regress of cause?
. It's matter to believe that matter is eternal?
Do you want me to answer this or not? Are you willing to have a logical discussion based on the evaluation of the truth value of each premise? Are you willing to act like an adult and try to understand where we disagree? Each time I do, you end up calling me names...
Only a fool would not seek out a healed relationship with such a Being.
Oh right, you already did call me names. Nevermind. I got my answer.
I have a universe full of evidence Hugo."
ReplyDeleteRight. You do not have more evidence for "no God" than I have for the existence of God. I worded it poorly but that's what I meant.
=====
"Do you want me to answer this or not?"
Sure, go for it.
Are you willing to act like an adult and try to understand where we disagree? Each time I do, you end up calling me names...
ReplyDeleteOnly a fool would not seek out a healed relationship with such a Being.
Oh right, you already did call me names. Nevermind. I got my answer.
Ah, and here I thought you'd explain how believing that matter created itself wasn't irrational. Oh well, my loss.
ReplyDelete...believing that matter created itself wasn't irrational...
ReplyDeleteI agree that it is irrational. The problem is that we don't agree on 'why' it is irrational.
The reason why we disagree is because you use 'common sense', what feels right. This is an unreliable way to assess the truth value of complicated issues such as the origin of the universe.
Using common sense, one arrives at the conclusion that 'duhhhh, there must be something that caused all this stuff to happen, it cannot just do it by itself!? You don't get something from nothing!?'
However, when taking the time to properly read the statements and understand what we actually know about the universe, the answer is not that simple.
For instance, remember that Lemaître himself did not agree that the Big Bang was proof of creation. At the time, some of his colleagues, and the pope himself I believe, were claiming proudly 'haha, see, the Big Bang is a creation event, God did it!'. Lemaître wisely pointed out that this is not what the Theory states
Therefore, 'matter created itself' is not rational because we don't know if matter was ever created. That's the rational position. You can certainly believe that matter was indeed created by a supernatural non-material god; that's fine I think, and I mean it. What's going too far in my opinion is claiming that people who don't share that view are irrational fools.
So are you saying that there is nothing that you believe as a "gut instinct"? Are you like Dawkins who refuses to deny that real fairies live at the bottom of his garden?
ReplyDeleteSo are you saying that there is nothing that you believe as a "gut instinct"?
ReplyDeleteWritten above:
NOTE: I am no less emotional than you for anything else; but for the 'God' question, I am. That's all.
Are you like Dawkins who refuses to deny that real fairies live at the bottom of his garden?
Not sure what this means; mockery I suppose?