1.6% of the North American population say they are proudly sceptical of everything - except the faith system they hold as true. These people hold to their world-view with religious fervour and blind faith. No matter how much evidence is put before them showing that atheism is absurd, illogical and incoherent they refuse to question their beliefs.
“One who claims to be a sceptic of one set of beliefs is actually a true believer in another set of beliefs.”
These people have to maintain this implausible position or their belief system will collapse.
This is what they’re like. This is how they think.
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No matter how much evidence is put before them showing that atheism is absurd, illogical and incoherent they refuse to question their beliefs.
ReplyDeleteWhich beliefs?
I'd like to hear your argument for theism being compatible with free will, mak.
ReplyDeleteBecause if freewill does not exist under theism, then some real nasty implications arise pertaining to the nature of Christian mythology.
"I'd like to hear your argument for theism being compatible with free will"
ReplyDeleteWould there be any point?
If you really want to sort it out, why not just google it? There's probably a million articles on the subject.
If you just want to argue and find support for what you already believe then what's the point?
Either way, you can count me out.
Let me ask, "Will you, right now, today, ask Jesus for forgiveness of you sins, admit that you've been wrong and beg Jesus to become not just your Saviour but also Lord of your life."
If you say, "No" is that a free will choice?
If you say, "Yes" is that a free will choice?
Or is someone / something compelling you to choose one or the other?
Under theism it's not a free choice, it was chosen "before time". You've described how the illusion works. God knowingly selected a path. If we stray from the path, god's will is compromised and therefore the qualifications of god must be dismissed. Me picking "no" does not compromise the path god selects, if it was going to happen anyway, via the selected outcome of god.
ReplyDeleteI would avoid this topic too, if I were you. Because if you start to understand what I'm saying, then your head will really be messed up, assuming your rational. (which I don't assume)
The reason is, if god's selected path involved atheists, then the fact that so many people are going to burn for eternity WITHOUT CHOICE may bother you, assuming your a decent human being. Of course, if god did not intend for atheists to exist, then we dismiss notions of gods infinite wisdom.
But don't worry, I know your too far gone to REALLY examine my contention. You've got faith missles at your defence, sleep soundly.
I'm not an atheist, I'm undecided. I don't have a belief system. I'm still waiting for someone to convince me their belief system is correct. So far Christianity has failed, but I'm still listening. Maybe I'll check out Hinduism next, since it was around long before Christianity and Judaism.
ReplyDelete@Brap
ReplyDeleteAccording to Rod's definition, I don't know anybody who is an atheist... and I don't know what belief system I am supposed to be supporting either...
Ya you should check out Hinduism though; I started dating a girl recently who happens to be Hindu, and worshipping Shiva with her has been awsome.
(if anybody understands the joke, let me know)
"Under theism it's not a free choice, it was chosen "before time".
ReplyDeleteRead Romans 8:29 and see if you can figure it out.
Then answer my question. I'm going to assume that you've answered "No. I will not submit to my Creator's invitation to enter into a healed and forgiven relationhip."
Did you have a choice?
Or were you compelled to decline the offer?
Did you have a choice?
Or are you a robot?
Do you have a choice to answer this question or not?
Or is any decision that you make predestined?
Don't hide behind "This is what theism teaches." You don't know squat about Theism.
You DO know if you are making a decision or not. Don't you?
(After reading Rod's 1.6% piece)
ReplyDeleteDon't hide behind "This is what atheism teaches." You don't know squat about atheism.
"Don't hide behind "This is what theism teaches." You don't know squat about Theism."
ReplyDelete...I'm not hiding, Mak. My contention requires only 2 qualifications for god. And I imagine they are easily agreed upon by Christians. I was raised a Christian, but rejected the mythology at an early age. Anyway, can you agree with these qualifications?
1.God is all powerful
2.God is all knowing
Coming from someone who always talks about how atheists are philologically ignorant, I would have thought you understood more about philosophy. But apparently, your all bark and no bite.
"Then answer my question. I'm going to assume that you've answered "No. I will not submit to my Creator's invitation to enter into a healed and forgiven relationship."
...I obviously don't agree to the terms of the question, I thought you understood atheism, mak.(Actually I didn't you did ;) If I don't believe in a creator, how can I submit ANYTHING! This is tiring mak, snap out of it. But if you want to me to pick "no", you can put a check beside my name if that helps progress your little argument.
"Did you have a choice?
Or are you a robot?"
and...
"Do you have a choice to answer this question or not?
Or is any decision that you make predestined?"
And...
"You DO know if you are making a decision or not. Don't you?"
...Oh shit! I have a choice? Oh I didn't think of it that way make. Wow you just blew my mind! Why didn't i consider having a choice? (Sigh)
...Mak you are a philosophical imbecile. Look, let me help you out a bit. I'm arguing for a deterministic reality as it concerns the assumptions about an existence manifested by a god UNDER the terms Christians easily accept. Okay? Now, your best bet is to learn about a compatiblistic approach to my deterministic argument, so that you can come back with an actual philosophical idea, rather than asking me whether or not I understand, that I have a choice. You obviously didn't understand my post whatsoever. Go google determinism for dummies, come back to me, and then try again.
Do any of the atheists here, understand this contention? can you help Rod out a bit?
Do any of the atheists here, understand this contention? can you help Rod out a bit?
ReplyDeleteNo, I am slow of mind, dull of thought.
You ARE living in a Theistic universe and you DO have free will choice. Do you understand Romans 8:29 or not?
ReplyDeleteI take it you are not a Calvinist.
ReplyDeleteRomans 8 is used by Calvinists to promote their idea of "Irresistible grace" so Rod might be and not understand.
ReplyDeleteIrresistible Grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ.
That is if God has chooses to 'save' you there is no resistance you can make to stop Him.
That doctrine doesn't totally stop free will, just the free will to chose to be saved or not.
John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you"
ReplyDeleteRomans 9 " So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. "
Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
..etc
A case can be made that the Bible does not teach free will. (Of course the Bible is a big book containing many contradictions)
Hey Rod,
ReplyDeleteAre you skeptical?
Are you willing to change your mind about theism?
ROMANS
ReplyDelete8:28
"
"All things work together for good to them that love God."
One of the greatest and most absurd lies in all of scripture."
ROMANS
8:29
"Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate."
Everyone is predestined by God to be either saved or damned; they can do nothing to affect their final destiny."
- SAB
contradiction is surely right. Being that we may find passages that promote and dismiss freewill, I think it's suiting to argue on the philosophical premises of God being all knowing and all powerful. AFTERALL, I find it hard to locate Christians willing to contest those qualifications.
ReplyDeleteSo let's put it together again...
1. If god is all powerful, then every detail of space/time is of his design.
2. If god is all knowing, then all time is foreseen at once by god leaving no action unknown.
3. If god designed space/time WHILE knowing the result of the design he chose in advance, Then all action with respect to matter/energy and time is the result of God's will WITHOUT exception.
What this also suggests, is that god even knew when "he" would intervene, sporadically throughout time. But if god knew he would need to intervene, why did he not create existence without necessary intervention? Does god predict what god will need to do later? and if god knew that he would need to do something later, could he not design existence in a way to avoid intervention later? What is the point in designing an existence that requires intervention when its unnecessary given the unlimited power of god?
Many questions.. of course the answer will be
"God DID design it this way, not in any other imaginary way. So it's pointless to IMAGINE other ways."
...that's not a direct quote, but it's what you'll expect to hear. It's an easy out when talking philosophically. Its a good way to avoid the logic presented. Afterall, we couldn't possibly know the mind of god right? A very convenient way to get out of such questions.
But let me try to put express this again, one more time, as simple as possible. Maybe he won't slip out of this one...
Did god intend there to be atheists?
* - (Yes) God purposely created atheists specifically to burn alive.
* - (No) God isn't all knowing.
I think where small minds get confused is in the fact that god created skepticism. God created the rules by which subjectivity is shaped. If human beings are too stubborn to believe in god, then tell me, who design stubbornness? God must accept responsibility for ALL THINGS subjective and objective.
@Hugo
ReplyDeleteYeah, I noticed Romans 8:28 as well.
I felt the same way.
"Its a good way to avoid the logic presented."
ReplyDeleteThe logic presented? That's a good one.
If you were in an intimate, healed and forgiven relationship with Jesus, if you had spent the time that I have with Him through profoundly difficult times, you would know Romans 8:28 as one of the greatest and most wonderful truths of all time.
Of course the good that God promises to bring about in all things (vs. 28) is found in verse 29 - a transforming and a conforming of one's character into the likeness of Jesus the Christ.
As I've said before, if I was allowed only one book, I'd choose Romans. If only one chapter it would be chapter 8. If only one verse it would be verse 28.
Oh, and snacker? Good luck with your logic.
So what do you think the word "Predestined" in verse 29 means in regards to free will?
ReplyDeleteGood luck with my logic? ...
ReplyDeleteYour serious?...
That's it? ...
...
...
...
Okay, how about I just focus on one very small thing at a time... Let's go back to my question from my last comment...
Did god intend there to be atheists?
* - (yes) god created atheists specifically to burn them in hellfire for eternity.
* - (no) god is not all knowing
... Let's start with that.
you think i'm joking but i'm not. if you have it memorised - great - otherwise i recommend that you have the main points on cue cards.
ReplyDeleteGod will be mightily impressed as you detail for Him the mistakes that He's made while creating the universe, putting in place the laws of logic and mathematics etc.
with any luck you'll be able to stand behind bertrand russel. that way you'll be able to see how it goes when he says, "Sir, You didn't give me enough evidence."
i'd love to come and watch but i suspect that i'll be busy somewhere else.
so i'll just wish you good luck with that now.
you guys might find this interesting. it's about an atheist over at huffington post.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-shore/i-a-rabid-anti-christian_b_551799.html
Oh, anonymous, in all the excitement I missed your little question. Yes it says predestination, but if you look carefully, there is an important word that comes before that. See if you can find that word and figure out what THAT word means. Then put the two words together in the order that they appear and you'll be getting close to the answer of free will.
ReplyDeleteOr you could just stop acting all cryptic and wise and just "enlighten" us as to the true meaning of the passage. That is, if you think our simple minds can handle it.
ReplyDelete...
"Oh, anonymous, in all the excitement I missed your little question. Yes it says predestination, but if you look carefully, there is an important word that comes before that."
ReplyDeletedid?
Don't get your hopes up anon, even if you get it, he'll never tell you. We're too slow of thought to understand the likes of him. And plus he FULLY knows how "we" think. There's no hiding, he's a master of atheism.
ReplyDeleteJust take some deep breaths snacker. Life will go on regardless of how this conversation ends. Like I said way back at the start. What is the point of giving you the answer? All THAT does is cause you to argue against it. I've treated you like crap and that gives you a vested interest in proving me wrong.
ReplyDeleteI thought that perhaps, if you tried to figure it out on your own it might have some benefit.
You should take a page from anonymous "Did?"
Now that's funny. He is putting the correct amount of importance on this issue. You're going to hell regards of what degree of understanding you have of the issue. Right? That's what you're determined to do, so why get so upset over whether I'm answering your questions or not? It's fruitless and frustrating. It'll drive you crazy.
I'm not saying don't look for the answer. I'm even willing to give you a hint here and there. Look at that link that I gave you and remember. You never know when God's gonna getcha.
"You should take a page from anonymous "Did?"
ReplyDeleteNow that's funny. He is putting the correct amount of importance on this issue. "
actually you said to look for the word before predestination and that word is 'did'... so what now?
I was thinking more along the lines of "foreknew."
ReplyDeleteYou're going to hell regards of what degree of understanding you have of the issue.
ReplyDeletePredestination.
You never know when God's gonna getcha.
Irresistible grace.
You talk like a Calvinist.
The next step is to tell us that God chose people to be atheists so he could send them to hell.