Store up for yourselves treasures in Heaven
where moth and rust cannot destroy and thieves cannot break in and steal

Saturday, May 22, 2010

Response to Hugo

In a post that I did a couple days ago, I told about an atheist archaeologist converting to Christianity. This conversion took place after he had set out to disprove the book of Acts - http://thesauros-store.blogspot.com/2010/05/16-solution_21.html -

I asked people to think about what might have been the deciding factor in this man’s conversion. Hugo gave me an answer that I guess he thought was suitably ludicrous for an atheist. For when I didn’t immediately respond to his comment Hugo said, "You cannot possibly agree with the way I reasoned about him.”

Well, my response to it now is, Even an atheist can stumble onto the truth without knowing it.

You and I and everyone else have been in a similar situation to the former atheist archaeologist Ramsey. Evidence equal in quantity and quality has been placed before us.

You, Hugo, and others like you look at the evidence and see nothing of import.

I and Ramsey and others look at the same evidence and something dramatic happens. The "something dramatic" has happened TO us, not because of us.

It wasn't what Ramsey did that brought about the change. In fact Ramsey's desired outcome was exactly the opposite of what came about. "It does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:16

The difference is exactly as you stated, Hugo. God intervened.

In Genesis 21 there is an account of Hagar being sent away with her son Ishmael. She and the boy are near death from lack of water.

Verse 19, “Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.”

Nothing new had been created. She did nothing physical or intelligent to acquire the water. All she did was sit there and call out to her Creator.

The well had been there the whole time.

As happened to the archaeologist Ramsey and me and a couple billion other people, God opened Hagar’s eyes.

The evidence for God’s existence has been right in front of all of us for 14 billion years. In fact, humans have come on the scene at the only time in history (in a cosmological sense of timing) to be able see almost all the way back to the beginning. No one is without excuse when it comes to denying the existence of Creator God. Yet, atheists look straight into this evidence and see nothing.

In fact atheists say, "What evidence?" Many of them are flat out serious.

They can be staring straight at everything they need for life and salvation and see nothing. They are spiritually blind, as well as theologically dull of mind and slow of thought. The blindness however is of their own doing, their own making, their own desire. It is a self-willed blindness. A self-willed inability to think and discern.

God has known from before the founding of the universe who would and who would not accept His offer of forgiveness. For those who will accept, God uses all manner of circumstance to move them toward the day of salvation. As with the archaeologist Ramsey, God will even use their determination to demolish the truth of the Bible as a means of bringing them to salvation.

For those who will not accept His offer of forgiveness, God uses all manner of circumstance to move them farther and farther along the road to their desire to be eternally separated from Him. God will even use an atheists reading of the Bible itself to foster in these people a disbelief that they cannot overcome.

As Pascal once said, “God has given us just enough evidence so that those who are looking for Him will be able to find Him. And He has given us just enough evidence so that those who do not want to find Him will not be able to find Him accidentally.”

9 comments:

  1. Thanks for the answer, for not addressing a single thing I wrote, and for insulting me instead, it's very meaningful.

    This will conclude one of the best week I ever had in my life; at the work level, relationship level, sport level, and even spiritual level; and you contributed positively to that last one Rod. Thanks, and best regards.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Heh.

    "God will even use an atheists reading of the Bible itself to foster in these people a disbelief that they cannot overcome."

    ReplyDelete
  3. In fact atheists say, "What evidence?" Many of them are flat out serious.
    In fact theists say, "We have evidence for the resurrection of Jesus." Many of them are flat out serious.

    I've been to a mosque and met many people that were converted to Islam because "the truth was revealed to them". They absolutely believe this, 100%. There is no difference between the solidarity they feel, and what you feel. CONVERSION IS NOT EVIDENCE. Not to mention the many priests that have dismissed religion in the face of an entire adulthood of learning the life of Jesus.

    NOW, are conversion rates to Christianity higher than those of priests converting to atheists? I'm sure they are, but its to be expected given the low percentage of atheists. The urge to become an Atheist will most often be resisted by the ease of belief embedded by past generations of people who knew no better explanation for the magic around them. For example, we know that adopted offspring, completely separated from birth from their biological parents, can adopt the same habits of their biological parents, absent of influence. A prostitute mother bestows upon their child an elevated chance to engage in the same behavior, whether or not the mother is even in the life of the child. Imagine the many many generations of theists; How hard might it be to break the increased odds of belief. It often takes a strong mind.

    Despite all that you think you know about Atheism, accepting it can be courageous in the face of a reality that comes too hard for some people. To believe that your going to live forever at one point, and to come face to face with one's mortality is admirable and strong. We pave our own roads, and commute to an uncertain future, and this is hard for so many people. People like to be ruled, they like to be told exactly what the future holds. And in the face of logical contradiction, that religion provides, theists contort their paradigm to shape an existence that simultaneously becomes more and less of a mystery as time progresses.

    In a cosmological sense, we do live in a goldilocks period, where we're granted the luxury of being able to observe ourselves floating through space, looking at the early expansion of the universe through a lens of radiation. However, if there were other pieces to the puzzle, now lost to us, due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, would we know it? We have made much progress, scientifically, but how far we've come can only be assessed by means of contrasting against all possible knowledge, and we cannot do that. consciousness is an unusual and wonderful thing. But people draw too many conclusions about the nature of consciousness and anthropomorphic meaning attached to this quality of permissible observation. The question is not, "why are we here?", but rather, "is why, the correct question?"

    People like Mak have created too many connections, too many attachments to the actions of their world, to the virtual reality of the gospel they've augmented into their paradigm, to turn back and observe reality unbiased enough to process our arguments. This blog can be addicting and upsetting at the same time. Addicting because of the strong urge to address the confusion and bigotry of its author. Upsetting, because no amount of dialogue seems to detour the author into processing the arguments in an area of the brain that will not screen information for very selective connections it can make between the text we write, and logic confined by the small perimeter of biblical arrest. It is as such, a lost cause.

    ReplyDelete
  4. This message amazes me atheistsnackbar. I am done with this blog. Thank you.

    ReplyDelete
  5. You don't prove this blog wrong for the blog-author, you prove it wrong for the lurkers.

    ReplyDelete
  6. "How hard might it be to break the increased odds of belief. It often takes a strong mind."

    Hmm, most atheists say that we were born atheists. While I agree that it is difficult to be different, to think different than the masses, rebellion against God is indeed our default setting. The slide is always away from God and toward self. Atheism is just one of the forms that slide takes.
    =========

    "The question is not, "why are we here?","

    I can see why you'd want to avoid that question.
    ==============

    "too many connections, too many attachments to the actions of their world, to the virtual reality of the gospel they've augmented into their paradigm, to turn back and observe reality unbiased enough to process our arguments."

    You've just noticed this? I've been in a relationship with my wife for 40 years and with Jesus for 30. My relationships grow closer with time, not more fragmented.

    Unlike Hugo, I don't do "this" just to MAKE other people change, and if they don't change I don't pick up my toys and go home.

    You are absolutely free to be who you've chosen to be.

    I think you're conclusions are wrong, but, unlike Hugo, I don't see it as being my business to change you.
    ==========

    ReplyDelete
  7. Rod,
    Please let me take this opportunity to thank you for insulting me yet another time.
    (Unlike Hugo, I don't do "this" just to MAKE other people change, and if they don't change I don't pick up my toys and go home.)

    Pretending that I participate in blogging discussions with the sole intention of making people change their mind is absolutely disgusting.

    So thank you for proving me right, once more, by exposing your failure to understand the minds of others.

    Coming from you, is it really surprising? Of course not. It's been clear for months to me that you have absolutely no clue regarding non-Christian worldviews, and never bother trying to understand why people with such worldviews reject Christianity.

    So it's not surprising (but new!) to see that you ALSO do not understand the motives and are not interested in them anyway.

    The fact that you posted your comment AFTER the Anonymous commenter proves my point. He wrote: "You don't prove this blog wrong for the blog-author, you prove it wrong for the lurkers."

    He's right. What I would have said is that it's all about discussing ideas, not an author, and if some people find it interesting in the process, it's just a bonus.

    Finally, just to make a better ending to my contribution to this blog than what I had wrote yesterday...

    Thanks a lot for all the "exchanges" we had, even though I never felt like it were exchanges, as you never consider my tiny little 25 year old brain as having anything valuable to say, simply because I do not believe in your particular god.

    In a way, I must thank you for that as well, because by ignoring my responses or misrepresenting them, you forced me to re-think different ways of approaching certain issues, made me learn so much about how people with your set of beliefs think, how they perceive the evidence for their own faith, how they ignore certain aspects of reality, how they perceive people of other faith and non-believers, and so on...

    Even though I don't know him, I appreciate Rod the father, the husband, the caring person, and I wish the best of luck to him.

    (p.s. I also happen to have tons of work to do in the following weeks... and have a new girlfriend... so I simply won't have as much time to spend commenting on random blogs, so it's a good moment to leave that one as it reached a peek of irrationality I have nothing to learn from anymore.)

    ReplyDelete
  8. @atheistsnackbar

    Sir, I forgot to write something. I needed to apologize to you, even though you don't know why, hehe.

    I honestly thought that you were some not-too-bright guy who just spits random jokes in the face of Christians to make fun of them. You did write some more serious stuff here and there before, but never as high quality as that last message that I really liked. So that's why I was so amazed. You actually write much better than I could ever do, English not being my first language, heck it's not even the language I use on a daily basis...

    So in other words I guess my first impressions concerning you were completely off, and I am glad I got to be corrected!

    (Not sure you know it already but you might like taking a look at a forum Whateverman suggested me last fall and that I now greatly enjoy: http://www.wearesmrt.com/bb/)

    Cheers

    ReplyDelete
  9. Hugo's too modest; his writing is better than a majority of the native English speakers on the intarwebz :)

    'Snackbar and Thesauros, you're both welcome to stop by and browse/troll/ignore as you see fit. Cheers everyone

    ReplyDelete