Atheists make a quite a deal out of God knowing in advance that people would decide to disobey Him. For some reason atheists define who God is and then tell Him what He can and cannot do according to their definition of His character.
Well, yes He did know that we would choose to ignore good and seek out after evil. That’s why He provided for a means of forgiveness before any disobedience had ever taken place.
Our Creator provided for a means of salvation before we were ever created.
Nothing was left to chance.
Yes there is sin, but God’s grace is greater.
Yes there is evil, but Love was here first.
Because God is all powerful, He CAN rid the universe of evil.
Because God is all good, He WILL rid the universe of evil.
Why is there still evil present in the universe? God uses the suffering, pain and tragedy that comes with a fallen world as a means of separating those who are for Him from those who are against Him. When this process is completed -
God CAN and WILL rid the universe of evil.
He promised to do that and He showed us the bloodied corpse of His Son as a deposit and guarantee that nothing will stop Him from accomplishing His goal.
Original Grace put in place the opportunity for you to experience salvation even before you knew you needed it.
Love - not evil - will have the final word.
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If god created the landscape by which subjective reality will form, how can you fault the person for naturally shaping to the reality that results from god's design, or in other words...
ReplyDeleteIf god created scepticism, why fault the sceptic? Push your mind further mak. Under the religious paradigm, god must accept blame for ALL SIN, afterall he not only designed it, he designed the urge to sin, by extension, since everything is of his will, it's really god who did the sinning.
These are the implications of unbounded power. god could have created an existence where only goodness happened. But then you'll retort, "god wanted to give you a choice", but first off, if all action was gods intent you never had a choice. And secondly, good and bad are the polar extremes by which god chose to play out his existance, but why not add a third extreme? Why not good, bad, and x? X being hard to imagine because of the "bi-polar" extremities by which our actions operate and brains contrast against.
And you then say "but god didn't, who are we to criticize god?".
But again, we're forced to examine the implications of the design. Since god could have created a universe that didn't require death and punishment to shape the desired character within the paradigms of his created beings, then why go to the trouble of inventing the mechanism of suffering to yield results he could have achieved otherwise, given his unbounded power?
Under any examination we are forced to conclude that god wants suffering, under the Christian paradigm. In other words, under theism...
God created atheists to watch them burn alive.
Can true love exist without choice to not love?
ReplyDeleteWell, is your God all powerful? Yes? Then yes.
ReplyDeleteNext you'll be asking if God could create a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it and calling that a profound question.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad we're finally speaking on philosophical terms! ...
ReplyDeleteokay now...
Your response is actually a good one. And it's usually enough to hypnotize anybody not willing to push the limits of our perception, past intuition. After all, all perception relies on the contrasting nature of mapping our reality. Which is to say, for humans, night is not significant without day. With nothing to compare night to, we cannot really get to know what it is.
HOWEVER... our sad implications of a designed reality remain.
If we answer your question with "no, true love cannot exist without choice of love." we must come to terms with the idea that a portion of human beings must be sacrificed to satisfy our qualification of true love. In short, the answer would be...
"yes, god intended atheists to exist, to burn them alive FOR THE PURPOSE OF satisfying criteria needed for true love to exist."
Which is a sad outcome if it were true. Your response was good, but it only helps illustrate the point I was making about god not only allowing suffering, but intending it to be so. Which of course means, there will be a required number of human beings WHO WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY NO MATTER WHAT. You see?
Now, if we answer "yes, true love CAN exist without choice not to love", we'll be instantly tempted to challenge this counter-intuitive idea. Why? because it goes against reality AS WE KNOW IT. But this is where god's boundless power comes into play. It was his algorithm, his rules that create an existence that necessarily requires the relative-perceptual mechanics we, in this existence, need to "understand the night".
This is what people have a hard time understanding. If creative power is boundless, why not create existence not dependant on such contrasting nature of perception. Why not create a reality, where intelligent beings "understand the night" despite the day.
FURTHERMORE!!!!
(This is important)
Can true love exist IN HEAVEN without choice to not love?
"Can true love exist IN HEAVEN without choice to not love?"
ReplyDeleteGreat question.
Ties in with the "is there free will in Heaven" question.
"I was making about god not only allowing suffering, but intending it to be so. Which of course means, there will be a required number of human beings WHO WILL BURN FOR ETERNITY NO MATTER WHAT. You see?"
ReplyDeleteYou say this as though you are shocked by it. You seem shocked that a Just God would actually carry out justice.
The point you seem to be missing is that while some will reject the offer of salvation until the day they die and as a consequence those people will indeed suffer eternal torment, IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE YOU.
It isn't justice if your set up to fail. That's like planting drugs in random houses to meet a quota. I wouldn't be able to accept eternal salvation if I knew that a percentage of other people will burn eternally NO MATTER WHAT. I cannot accept that as justice. If somebody HAS to play the role of the sinner, that's like playing musical chairs with eternal life. And I would give my eternal salvation to someone else, because someone has to burn, and I wouldn't wish that upon anybody. You have to zoom out mak, and look at the big picture. Whether or not it's you who burns is a selfish way to percieve eternal salvation under the laws of a scenario that requires a percentage to burn, no matter what. I surely hope you see my point...
ReplyDeleteMak said.."For some reason atheists define who God is and then tell Him what He can and cannot do according to their definition of His character."
ReplyDeleteHowdy Mak,did you realize this could actually just as easily be written as:... For some reason "theists" define who God is and then tell Him what He can and cannot do according to their definition of His character.
I only needed to remove the "a"
Thats the biggest problem, there is no actual objective way to actually know who`s actually wrong or correct.Its why right throughout time humans have jumped from such faith beliefs such as Thor and Odin and Neptune,Budda or human sacrifice unward to animal sacrifice to Jesus`s sacrifice onward to Jim Jones cult sacrifice etc etc etc.
Also the ideas of suggested persecution of those who had faith in human and animal sacrifice ,moved onward to being persecution of Jesus and onward to persecution of Maks faith group ,and JW`s faith group,and the Morman faith group,and even Westbro Baptist faith group feel they are also being persecuted for their faith just the same etc etc etc.And so also do Muslims who have their faith in Islam.
"It isn't justice if your set up to fail."
ReplyDeleteWho's being set up? You know exactly what the ground rules are. You know exactly what God demands of you. You don' have to like a law in order to obey it. You only have to make the choice, the decision to obey or to not obey.
"I wouldn't be able to accept eternal salvation if I knew that a percentage of other people will burn eternally NO MATTER WHAT."
How noble of you! The mistake you're making is that there isn't anyone who is going to burn "no matter what." The only reason anyone will go to hell is because they have rejected God's offer of forgiveness. You don't need to reject it and neither does anyone else.
Will some reject it? Of course. Did they have to? No.
Will Some get drunk tonight? Of course. Did they have to? No.
Will some beat their wives tonight. Of course. Did they have to? No.
Will some will give their lives to Jesus tonight? Of course. Did they have to? No.
They've accepted the invitation just a others have rejected it.
As I've said, If you wind up in hell, you'll have had to step over Jesus' dead body to get there.
Jesus has done everything that He can do, save taking away your freewill choice, to give you the option of spending eternity in paradise.
Only you can keep that from happening.
Hey, I don't want to break your philosophical discussion here because it's interesting to read, and I don't have much to say myself... but I would like to comment on this:
ReplyDeleteYou know exactly what the ground rules are. You know exactly what God demands of you.
Nope. Not at all. All I know is what some PEOPLE who believe in God want me to do. God never told me anything and I don't even have a single reason to believe He exists because only fallible men, like you and I, talk about him.
Jesus could be the one, and only one, we should listen to if he really was God in human form. But again, the same problem arise; I have no reason to believe Jesus ever existed (as a God/Zombie of course, I think there was a real man who inspired the stories).
The only things I can ever learn about Jesus will come from people who already believe in him... I don't think any of these people are lying, they are just ill informed and stories got messed up over the years by people with good intentions but false beliefs. I digress though and this would lead to the the 'Would you die for a lie' debate and Rod does not like it... The Bible is true people, ok? Never forget that.
Hugo, you keep drifting into and out of your imaginary worlds.
ReplyDeleteIf for the sake of argument, God is allowed to exist so you can blame Him for setting you up to fail, then, for the sake of argument, this same God exists as the one who has in fact laid out the ground rules for both punishment for rejecting Him and a reward for accepting His offer of forgiveness.
You remind me of a Seinfeld episode where George curses God over something or other and Jerry asks, “You believe in God?” To which George replies, “Only when bad things happen.”
This is what atheists are like. This is how they think.
Mak said..."Who's being set up? You know exactly what the ground rules are. You know exactly what God demands of you. You don' have to like a law in order to obey it. You only have to make the choice, the decision to obey or to not obey."
ReplyDeleteWe know exactly what the ground rules are Mak?.
What if Islam happens to be the correct faith and passage to eternal life with god in heaven.What if Hinduism infact happens to be the correct faith, and maybe the need for sacrifice of animals or even humans is still needed.What if humans actually still havent even stumbled upon the right path to salvation yet?.
There is absolutely no objective way we can discern these matters and know its correct 100% is there.
Like i tried to point out earlier what you had written could just as easily be re written to read exactly the opposite.
IE .:"For some reason "theists" define who God is and then tell Him what He can and cannot do according to their definition of His character."
I cant see how it can be simply asserted as what you stated...>"Who's being set up? You know exactly what the ground rules are. You know exactly what God demands of you."
What of those who were led to put their faith in Thor or Odin or Muhammad`s opinion of what God/s wanted? ...Do you also condemn these people? or maybe better put does the God/s you put your faith in condemn them for being set up to fail by people who they followed who guessed about God/s?
If it was actually honest JUDGEMENT that we all knew with no questions exactly what the charactor and will etc, of God-/s actually were.And especially that it was honest that they actually existed ....Then it would be fair judgement that humans knew.
But that is not the case.It never was.
You use the tactic of fear to try and scare folks of the thought of some eternal damnation.
Did you ever consider there might even be some God-/s who much prefered for people not to go trying to guessing what charactor of God/-s might be? ...Ever consider they could maybe even be angered by all the harm and death caused by the many humans who all tried doing so?.
Mak you seem quick judge all us non believers for questioning faith .Seems you feel we are simply keen on keeping on being sinners and that maybe we all simply must likely be getting drunk every night and commiting adultery left right and centre.etc
ReplyDeleteDo you considder this might be incorrect? ..Do you considder this might actually be very false judgement of many?.
Of course i understand you have faith in christianity and so will point to the bible and Jesus who it is said died for our sins etc.You will mention certain miracles mentioned in this book,but will only offer what is written in this book the bible ,for reasons why human can no longer freely see and experience many of these miracles that were suggested to once exist and were often openly able to be seen to be happening.How fair do you suggest it is?, that there was said to be once be a time when these unquestionable miracle, were available to be seen and experienced by everyone who wanted to,yet now this is not the case?...We are left seeing only questionable suggestions of miracles,ALONG WITH MANY SITUATIONS OF PEOPLE LIKE THE BENNY HINNS OF THIS WORD WHO ARE OFTEN PROVED AS FRAUDULENT
So is it really so fair that we heathens really should be judged by you and your god so severely??.
You tell us its no excuse to not have faith simply because is the frauds we experience.And i agree.
But this is not just the case.Yes we notice the frauds.But we also notice that there is no objective way to know if God/s even exist.And there is not even any signs of miracles that is even suggested in the bible to have once existed and been freely available for all to experience.
Why the bible even states these miracle are what convinced people.
Why is it right to judge and condemn people for being no less human than they were back in days of old?.
We cannot be expected to rely on old books.If that was honestly a very fair expectation.Then so would it be fair game that people have faith in the koran also.
Hugo, you keep drifting into and out of your imaginary worlds.
ReplyDeleteYep, because I know where the line is. Unlike you.
I asked you questions about that before actually. You never answered. Isn't that interesting?
Clue: Big Bang!?
If for the sake of argument, God is allowed to exist so you can blame Him for setting you up to fail,
Let's take it slowly ok... I am slow of mind, so I need to go veryyyyy slowly.
Here you blame the fact that some arguments against the existence of God will claim, for example, that if God is all powerful, then he could stop major catastrophes happening, or save people from suffering, whatever. Another example might be an argument that say that since everything is God's plan, from start to finish, from -infinty to infinity, then he is responsible for every single thing that ever happen naturally. He cannot alter our free will, but he can alter nature, at anytime, as he wish.
Now, I don't want to discuss these arguments. I want to discuss what you think about these. What I think is that, in your mind, you equal that kind of argument to blaming God for bad things. This is what you wrote...
Let's move on anyway:
then, for the sake of argument, this same God exists as the one who has in fact laid out the ground rules for both punishment for rejecting Him and a reward for accepting His offer of forgiveness.
Now this comes close to the second example I gave. The argument being "attacked" is of the type: If an Omniscient Creator God exists, then he decided in advance who will be theists/rewarded or atheists/damned.
We could have interesting discussion on that argument. However, this is completely irrelevant to the point you are trying to make because you are attacking an argument that has no evidence attached to it. It's an exercise of logic, and even then, you fail it (other people over here presented good points...).
You wrote it yourself... " for the sake of argument, this same God exists as" ... for the sake of argument! I can make a freaking good case about the Flying Spaghetti Monster using arguments, want to hear it? No? Good, because I have no time to waste on time, lol.
"You remind me of a Seinfeld episode where George curses God over something or other and Jerry asks, “You believe in God?” To which George replies, “Only when bad things happen.”
That's hilarious.
This is what atheists are like. This is how they think.
Yep, that's what I tried to show.
Rod,
ReplyDeletedo you believe we have free will in heaven or not?
To all:
ReplyDelete"If you search for me with all your heart (that means a genuine search) I will be found by you." Countless people have found this to be so. If your heart is not genuine then He will remain hidden.
Unlike other religions, Christianity is grounded in history. It invites examination. No body, not even in science, keeps reinventing the wheel. At some point, we have to trust the work of those who have gone before. People like atheist turned Christian Josh McDowell (sp?) haven't written a book of lies. He's not out to trick you. He is a competent researcher who has given enough empirical evidence to know that the essence of historical Christianity is true. Is it 100% certain? No, but why set up a standard for this when you don't demand it of most other things in your life?
This isn't something bad, you know. You're being invited to the most wonderful thing that's ever happened to you and you fight it like you're being pushed into the worst thing ever. God is trying to rescue you from the worst thing ever and you're . . . well - I don't get it.
It doesn't matter if you don't like it. It doesn't matter if you think God is a monster. You need to start with accepting that maybe God is - period - and then go on your search.
If your prayer is a genuine "Father God, I don't know if you're real, but if you are then please reveal Yourself to me," He will honour that search.
I know that it's hard if you've been caught up in a crappy Church, a sick Church and fraudulant Church (While I know some born again Roman Catholics they certainly didn't meet Jesus through the teaching of their Church) that doesn't excuse you from going after Jesus on your own. Like I said before, a relationship with Jesus is intensely personal. No one can do it for you.
===============
"do you believe we have free will in heaven or not?"
Everyone in heaven will have ALREADY made the decision as to where their allegiance stands. Will that choice be sealed? Our decision is already sealed (2 Cor. 1:22; Ephesians 1:13, 4:30) I can't think of any reason why or how anyone who has made a decision for heaven is going to change h/her mind once there.
That sounds like you are saying that there is no free will in heaven. Or that free will is removed.
ReplyDeleteWell, for one thing, I don't know of anywhere that this issue is spoken of in the Bible. Other than the begger saying to the rich man who is in hell that "there is a great chasm separating you and I and no one can cross from the one side to the other," or something like that.
ReplyDeleteTo me it's like my marriage. I have the option, I suppose to leave this marriage any time I want, but it's an option that would never occur to me to use. I've made a commitment to this marriage. I love my wife.
In reality I have two options and the freewill choice to make exercise either option.
Realistically or effectively, I have only one option. I will use only one option. It will be the same with heaven - probably.
Is this a special concern to you?
Your answer is yes but no?
ReplyDeleteYou seem in such a better mood today that I don't think I'll push it.