First, let me start with your experiment from, if I remember back 40 years, psych 101 - “Don’t think about the colour red” I think it was in the text book. Even back in the day when I mocked God and those who believed in Him, I wouldn’t have tried such a trivial game to see if God existed.
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"First, how do you distinguish between your own self, your conscience, and God, when praying. In other words, the information and/or knowledge and/or skills that you can get/improve while praying must come from an external source. How can you identify elements coming from outside?"
That’s not always easy to do - sometimes I suspect it’s impossible. One main way of distinguishing something “from” God is, does it agree with what the Bible says. For example, Let’s say my kids saw a neighbour take some of tools out of my garage when I wasn’t home and now several weeks after his job was done he still hasn’t returned them. In fact, as we’re talking one day on his driveway I can see my tools sitting on his workbench. This is the third time he’s done this. I’ve told him that I don’t mind lending him tools but I want him to ask so I know where my things have gone. I am really, really upset that he’s done it again.
I silently ask God how I should handle this. I “hear” “Firmly but politely tell him you notice your tools on his bench and say "Would you get them for me so I can take them home." Remind him that you want him to ask before taking you stuff. Then forgive him.”
Since God’s Spirit lives within me, since I know what the Bible says about these kinds of situations, since after 30 years of learning from God and my conscience is tuned to His will, it would be near impossible to tell where I end and He begins re: my thoughts.
On the other hand, if I ask, “How do I handle this Lord,” and I “hear” “Rip him a new one. Who does that jerk think he is. End this friendship now!” I know, because it contradicts what the Bible says that I’m not hearing from God. I may be hearing from "my old self" or I may be hearing from a "dark" external source. I'm not sure how one would tell nor am I sure what difference it would make as to the source.
Further, when I talk to you or other atheists in a tone of distain and derision, I am deliberately ignoring the Bible / God / conscience.
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"I don't understand exactly what you mean when you say that you get knowledge/insights through prayer? Is there really an interaction with an external source or do you consider that it's already all "in there" and that prayer only makes you access it "within" yourself?"
I don’t think you CAN understand this Hugo. That’s not an insult. It just is. Until God speaks to us, until He makes us know something about Himself, we can’t know it. Like the concept of grace. Without really knowing what we’re asking for, humans think they want justice, not grace. Only after learning grace by receiving grace can we know grace. The same with God Himself, until He reveals Himself to you, i.e. communicates His existence to you (not your conscience and certainly not you), you CAN’T know He exists. You can act like you believe in His existence, but sooner or later you’ll just become another John Loftus.
For some old atheist questions on prayer see:
http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheist-missionary-tract.html
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...if I remember back 40 years, psych 101 - “Don’t think about the colour red” I think it was in the text book.
ReplyDeleteYes exactly!
Even back in the day when I mocked God and those who believed in Him, I wouldn’t have tried such a trivial game to see if God existed.
Wait, what? Who said that it was a trivial game to see if God existed?
...sometimes I suspect it’s impossible. One main way of distinguishing something “from” God is, does it agree with what the Bible says...
But you do believe in so many things that disagree with the Bible. I don't mean directly but each time you say that the Bible needs to be taken into context, interpreted regarding of the genre used, etc... you are basically using your thought process to determine what the Bible "should" say. Then, when you think/pray, you go the other way around and say that these thoughts are in agreement with the Bible.
You know there is a much simpler explanation here: your belief in God/Jesus is the starting point. You then adapt the Bible to suit that belief as much as you can, and then adept other thoughts/ideas to confirm with this new "version" of the Bible.
In a way it is "scientific", kind of a self-correcting mechanism. Plus, the good thing is that I don't see much bad with it because the starting point is very positive. Jesus is love, hope, forgiveness, ..., so I don't think it's a bad starting point!
Obviously I don't believe that he was a God and that's why we disagree on other things, but I wish you would recognize sometimes that our worldviews are that different since my starting points are very similar. It's just that they don't require a divine Creator.
...I know what the Bible says about these kinds of situations, since after 30 years of learning from God and my conscience is tuned to His will, it would be near impossible to tell where I end and He begins re: my thoughts.
Do you know how this sounds to me?
I know what God wants; I think like God.
Thankfully, you also say...
Further, when I talk to you or other atheists in a tone of distain and derision, I am deliberately ignoring the Bible / God / conscience.
Phew, you leave a little place for mistakes :-)
I don’t think you CAN understand this Hugo. That’s not an insult. It just is. Until God speaks to us, until He makes us know something about Himself, we can’t know it.
ReplyDeleteActually you don't get the part that I don't understand. What you just wrote IS the part that I understand. You think it's out of reach for some reason but it's not. I understand that when you believe, certain thoughts, certain ideas, certain things you read in the Bible, make more sense to you than to me, and especially have more meaning.
What I don't understand is the way you perceive it: Do you think you get new knowledge from the Holy Spirit, or do you already have it in new, or come up with it yourself, and then decide which piece of knowledge, or which idea to keep while being guided by the Holy Spirit? I doubt it's clear, let me give an analogy...
Your brain contains a hard drive that stores memories. Your consciousness (your soul if you wish), uses the information in this hard drive to make sense of the world and come up with new ideas, thoughts and store more memories. We call all that getting new knowledge. The Holy Spirit would be like an external user interacting with the hard drive. Does the Holy Spirit writes stuff in it and then tell you 'look what I just put', or does the Holy Spirit waits for you to generate ideas, and then tell you 'pick that one'.
For some old atheist questions on prayer see:
http://makarios-makarios.blogspot.com/2009/05/atheist-missionary-tract.html
This link does not even talk about prayer the way we are talking about here. Plus, sorry but your comments over there are not very smart. You misrepresent the position you were trying to attack and even go out of your way by claiming that Noah's flood could have happened. That's just embarrassing really...