“Perhaps you disagree, but saying that I am wrong... really?”
Yes - Really. You think opinions can’t be wrong?
There is nothing about who I am today, at least re: character improvements that I’ve set out to create. And it has nothing to do with "believing" as strongly as I can believe. It has everything to do with Jesus - who He is and His plan for our lives.
I’ve put no effort into changing, no plan, no goal. All I’ve done is hang out with Jesus and any change in character, such as it is, has been completely and totally His doing. Like I say, if someone just met me today and observed who I am, s/he might think, “Eh, what’s the big deal? He seems like a jerk to me.” But if that person compared the today me with the Rod in his pre Jesus days, I think a lot of people would say, “I want some of whatever made that guy change.” At least they’d say that until they found out it was Jesus and then most of those people would decide to stay as is.
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“So you mean you actually have a way to convince me that something in this quote was wrong:”
It is wrong. I don’t need to convince you or anyone else. I know that I have nothing to be proud of; at least not as I understand pride. I’m pleased with what God has done, and so are those who must spend time with me, but proud of what “I” have accomplished? Not a chance. That would be like me being proud that I caused myself to be born in Canada.
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“I sincerely believe that you should be proud of the changes you made to your life. It's just an opinion.
It’s a belief / opinion that is wrong because pride is something that is far more dangerous than it is good. Pride has no interest in being “as good as.” Pride makes people want to be better than. That’s what makes proud atheists so obnoxious.
I’m a better mother, a better teacher, a better student, a better bowler, a better person and on and on. I'm a bright and you're not! Pride has no interest in being as good as - only better than, and that leads to a crappy attitude. Our school is better than your school. My race is better than your race. My political party is better than your party. My religion is better than your religion. Pride is a horrible scourge on society. That’s why “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
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“You can claim that it's because some supernatural agent helped you, but you need to prove that,”
Says who? I know the things that I’m capable of and character transformation is not one of them. I’m not saying that no one is capable of self-improvement. I saying that I am not. I’ve never even been interested in self-improvement. I’m a high functioning sociopath with little or no inherent love for others. Like the moon, without the Son I’m a cold hard stone.
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“insult my intelligence and label me as slow of thought.”
When the spiritual self is strangled or ignored, a person is less than half alive, dull of mind and slow of thought. That’s not an insult. It’s just a fact.
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“the only thing I can be wrong about is whether you were helped by the Holy Spirit or not.”
Exactly! And that changes everything. “To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me.” Colossians 1:29.
That is exactly what you’re wrong about.
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“We see religious people all around the world doing good things in the name of their gods.”
Yes, but not BECAUSE of their “gods.” They are straining to complete “the wheel of rebirth and suffering” in an attempt to APPEASE their gods. That is not Christianity. See the June 14th post “Walk by the Spirit” http://thesauros-store.blogspot.com/2011/06/walk-by-spirit.html
In Christianity I work OUT my salvation. In all other religions, including Roman Catholic, one works FOR one’s salvation.
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“Yet, the way you act is exactly the way anybody would act if they truly believe their religion.”
I disagree. As Buddhism says, “The tears of another man are just water.” In Christianity, the tears of another man are a window into his soul, and that compels us, out of love, to do something to help.
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“So either you are a slave of God, deciding nothing . . .,”
There you go - Hugo, you’re getting it!
To be continued in the next post.
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Yes - Really. You think opinions can’t be wrong?
ReplyDeleteIn a logical sense, opinions cannot be wrong. It does not make any sense to say that an opinion is wrong. Same thing with belief, since it is a form of opinion. A belief, logically, cannot be wrong.
The arguments, reasons, statements, facts, etc... used to form an opinion or a belief can be wrong, but not the opinion or belief themselves.
Therefore, when I tell you that I think you should be proud of who you are because of your own achievements, you cannot say that I am wrong. It does not make sense.
Sure, you can say that you disagree, and I would not call you wrong for that, because it would still not make sense.
Here's what can be wrong or not, and you correctly identified it in your post actually:
"...you were helped by the Holy Spirit or not."
You claim that it was the Holy Spirit, and I don't believe you. You could be wrong, you could be right.
How can you prove that you are right? Honestly I am not sure... because it's such an absurd claim. We have examples of people changing themselves, by putting in the effort and/or taking the right decisions. You, because you are Christian, supposedly was helped by God, Jesus, in the form of the Holy Spirit. That's what you need to prove. But when I said that you replied...
Says who? I know the things that I’m capable of and character transformation is not one of them. I’m not saying that no one is capable of self-improvement. I saying that I am not. I’ve never even been interested in self-improvement. I’m a high functioning sociopath with little or no inherent love for others. Like the moon, without the Son I’m a cold hard stone.
Yet you did change. No matter what you want to pretend, you changed. That is a fact. Not an opinion of either of us. It could be false though, if you lied, but that's just silly...
So starting from this fact, how can you prove that you could not change without the Holy Spirit? I really don't know. Claiming that you could not makes absolutely no sense since you do believe in the Holy Spirit, and you do believe that this little voice inside your head is either the Holy Spirit directly or guided by the Holy Spirit. So the only thing you can pretend is that without believing in the Holy Spirit, you would not have had the willpower to change. Actually, you would not have had the incentive to change most probably, as eternity in Heaven is quite a nice reward to lure somebody into a religion...
“So either you are a slave of God, deciding nothing . . .,”
There you go - Hugo, you’re getting it!
Yes, I always get it (sorry for the arrogance) but you are the one who is not getting it, and never will. What you just replied here is a violation of the concept of free will. It kind of close the circle on the whole faith deal. We cannot decide anything unless God wants us to, but God did give us a choice. We just need to believe and he will do the rest, but we cannot believe before he allows us to, if he wants to, but then again we really have a choice since God would not be all just and perfect if we didn't, it would not be fair not to let us have a chance to ask for forgiveness, grace is offered to all who accepts Jesus, except if he decided otherwise, because he can, he is God after all, but again if you just have faith you will know God and be saved... should we continue?
More text to comment on!
ReplyDeleteI know that I have nothing to be proud of; at least not as I understand pride. ...
Well ya, that's the problem, you see pride as being only negative...
...pride is something that is far more dangerous than it is good. Pride has no interest in being “as good as.” Pride makes people want to be better than. That’s what makes proud atheists so obnoxious.
In general I agree with you, the way you described pride, as being something that shows that you are "better than" is not a very good attitude.
However, it need not be the case. You can be proud of yourself for being better than yourself. Or you can just be proud of being yourself, no need to compare. Actually, you can even be proud of being slightly less good than yourself, or compare to anything else.
In other words, I don't understand why you mix pride and arrogance. When I am telling you that you should be proud of the changes you accomplished with yourself, there is nothing negative about it. It's only a way to express the idea that you have good values, live a good life, and try to be nice with people around you. That's something to be proud of, in a very positive way.
Concerning atheism, there is nothing to be proud of so it only shows, once more, that you are judgemental and failing at mind reading, at least in my case. I am not proud of being an atheist, there is nothing to be proud about. What I am proud of, I think, is the knowledge that I acquired over the years. But I did say 'think' because I feel like it's more out of interest than effort so there is not much to be proud about. I was gifted with an above average intelligence but that's not something to be proud of at all since I did not do anything to deserve it. I can be happy and grateful but that's about it. Just like when people are proud of their country I guess. They are not proud of what the country did, they just feel like they can associate themselves with the country and they are proud of saying that they do. Is that all bad?
Moreover, being humble is not opposed to being proud. Not at all. Actually I really wonder what kind of definitions you hold for pride to be impossible to conciliate with modesty....
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ReplyDeletea bit more that I did not address...
ReplyDelete“insult my intelligence and label me as slow of thought.”
When the spiritual self is strangled or ignored, a person is less than half alive, dull of mind and slow of thought. That’s not an insult. It’s just a fact.
That is even more insulting, but at the same time it's really funny because you're problem is that you have absolutely no grasp on what is a fact, an insult, an opinion, a belief, and more importantly, what is real, what exists in reality, versus what is imaginary, conceptual or non-existent. You blend the lines on all of these concepts and that is why it's so interesting to read what you write.
I don't think it matters in general since you go through life, the real part of it, very well, and that's what really matters.